Is Allen Cunningham the best poker player?

Did Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain face weak competition?

• Two of the NBA's greatest players, Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, are often criticized for playing in a "weak" era. This is far from the truth, as the 1960s were a very good time for basketball. A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevertheless hall of famers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents: Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer New York Knicks: Willis Reed San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy Russel and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russel and Chamberlain faced included: 1960-1964: Dolph Schayes Bob Pettit Walt Bellamy Jerry Lucas 1965-1968: Willis Reed Elvin Hayes Wes Unseld Nate Thurmond 1969-1972: Kareem Abdul Jabbar Bob Lanier Artis Gilmore Billy Cunningham Dave Cowens One reason fans tend to lash out at these legends is the absurd stats of not only Russel and Chamberlain, but average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players: a. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005. b. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded. When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others. Another common misperception is that Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain) Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2" Dennis Awtrey: 6'11" Walt Bellamy: 6'11" Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0" Nate Bowmen: 6'11" Mel Counts: 7'0" Walter Dukes: 7'0" Jim Eakins: 6'11" Ray Felix: 6'11" Hank Finkel: 7'0" Artis Gilmore: 7'2" Swede Halbrook: 7'3" Reggie Harding: 7'0" Bob Lanier: 6'11" Jim McDaniels: 6'11" Otto Moore: 6'11" Dave Newmark: 7'0" Rich Niemann: 7'0" Billy Paultz: 6'11" Craig Raymond: 6'11" Elmore Smith: 7'0" Chuck Share: 6'11" Ronald Taylor: 7'1" Nate Thurmond: 6'11" Walt Wesley: 6'11" Two other factors to keep in mind: a. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height. b. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern nba scheduling. The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In this years all star game, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, and Chris Kaman were the only three of 30 players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs. The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today 1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game 1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg 2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg 3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg 2005 Top 3 in minutes played per game 1. Lebron James, 42.3 mpg 2. Allen Iverson, 42.3 mpg 3. Gilbert Arenas 40.9 mpg In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12

• Answer:

  Well said, and this if for those of you who said that Hakeem Olajuwon is the greatest center of all time. I've seen a number of fans make the claim that Olajuwon is the best center of all time. They're wrong, but quite a few people have said it. It could be said that the best "teammate" Olajuwon had was Clyde Drexler, although he did play with Sampson during the best part of Sampson's career. I would not consider the 90s to be the best era for big men... you basically had 4 or 5 HOF quality centers in the league in Shaq, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson and possibly Zo. Maybe Mutombo if you want to go that far. But that was IT. In the 70s, we had Jabbar, Walton when he was healthy, Cowens, Reed, Hayes, Unseld, Thurmond, Jerry Lucas, Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Moses Malone, Bob McAdoo, plus Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel and Mel Daniels from the ABA. Not all of those guys played throughout the 70s, but they were all there during that generation. All of the NBA guys I named are Hall of Famers, Issel is a HOF as well, but Gilmore certainly should be in there too, and even Daniels has a decent argument, although I dont see him ever making it, unfortunately. Olajuwon did destroy Ewing in the 94 finals, no question about that. And while Olajuwon's footwork was great, the "Dream Shake" is the 2nd most overplayed and overrated move in NBA history (the most overrated was Jordan switching hands on an uncontested layup in the '91 finals). Olajuwon's footwork developed while playing soccer as a child. You've already made the point yourself that blocked shots were not an official NBA stat during the careers of Russell and Chamberlain, otherwise, they'd be 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1) in that category. While blocks were not an official stat, newspaper accounts of games involving Wilt and Russell would often mention how many shots they blocked... it was not unusual for them to block 6-8 shots in a typical game. I'm not saying that's what they averaged, I'm just mentioning that it was common for them to have numbers like that. Both players and referees confirmed those numbers in subsequent interviews over the years. Heck, Wilt blocked 17 shots in his very first NBA game (oh and btw, he also chipped in with 43 points and 28 rebounds that night). Blocks (and steals) were not officially kept by the NBA until the 1973-74 season (the season after Wilt retired), and the NBA does not recognize ANY blocked shots by Wilt or Russell (even though they're on film). Olajuwon would be no better than 4th on the all time blocked shot list had the stat been kept by the NBA from day one. He might even be #5, I think Nate Thurmond probably would have blocked more shots in his prime than Olajuwon. Both Russell and Wilt would also be high up on the steals list (for a center) had that been an official stat as well during their careers. If Pete Newell says that Olajuwon has the best footwork he'd ever seen in a big man, I'll take his at his word. Newell's been a coach/scout/consultant for a long time, and he has indeed seen them all. However, having the best footwork doesn't automatically make you the best player. Charles Barkley, for example, had terrible footwork, but he was still a heck of a player. I wouldn't be able to name too many forwards in NBA history who were better than he was. Olajuwon had some weaknesses in his game that were not always easy for a casual fan to spot. His passing skills were never that great, and his in-depth knowledge of the game was lacking in some areas (he did not really play basketball at all until his late teens). His remarkable athleticism made up for his relative lack of overall knowledge. He didnt always have a knowledge or feel for where every one of the other 9 guys were on the court. When Olajuwon came into the league, for example, some teams used to try to play him physically by getting a strong player to lean on him. But that actually made Olajuwons job easier, because he could feel his man leaning on him and spin off of him (theres that great footwork again). However, Pat Riley discovered that if you play off of him in the post, then Olajuwon would have to physically turn in order to locate the defender (because he couldnt use the spin move). That gave a team time to double team him and take the ball out of his hands (and as a bonus, his poor passing skills could sometimes be exploited). Thats just one example, but its something that not many people know about. All they ever talk about is the one move he made against David Robinson, and from that alone, they proclaim him as the best center ever. Olajuwon did win 2 rings, but imho, probably would have only won 1 ring at most had Jordan not retired. Still, you play who you play, and its not his fault Jordan retired early. But Olajuwon did play great in both of those finals, and outplayed both Ewing and (a young, raw) Shaq. Still, although you say that Olajuwon didnt have any great teammates, neither did Ewing so it was one one-man team against another in 94. He deserved both rings that he won. And Im glad he won them. I always liked him and enjoyed watching him play. In the 70s and 80s, you needed several HOF or HOF quality players in order to win a championship. The fact that Olajuwon was able to win 2 titles in the 1990s with those teammates says more about the overall weakness of the NBA and the fact that the talent was spread so thinly than it does about him being the greatest center of all time. Btw, when Kareem was 39 years old (1986) and Olajuwon was about 23, Kareem was named first team all-NBA over Olajuwon. Kareem destroyed both Olajuwon and Sampson during those days. Dont get me wrong, Olajuwon was great even at that age, but the fact that Kareem was first team all-NBA at age 39 tells us all we need to know about who was better. You dont want to know what Kareem would have done to Olajuwon in his prime! But Wilt, Russell and Kareem are (in some order) still the 3 best centers to ever play the game. Olajuwon is one of maybe 3 guys who have a legitimate claim to be #4 (along with Moses Malone and Shaq). Walton was actually a better player than Olajuwon as well, but we cant rate him over Hakeem because Waltons career was injury prone. The 1990s saw a decline in the overall quality of centers. And again, dont get me wrong, its not the fault of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson or Shaq as to when they were born. They came to the NBA when they did. But the 1990s NBA was becoming loaded down with too many guys who came right out of high school and werent ready for the NBA (other than their potential).