For Jewish posters: What is the appropriate way for you to talk about the Messianic movement?

I am not sure about the question or responses you are referring to; however, here are the exceptions to the ruling. Every ruling has exceptions: The exception to Lashon Hara, would be that one is OBLIGATED to reveal someone's flaws, if it ultimately can do harm (in this case the misrepresentation of beliefs and information and the attack on the Jewish soul) The Torah thereby indicates that even though there is a prohibition to gossip, nevertheless, there is a prohibition to remain silent if he knows that someone will be in trouble and can be saved by the information he will divulge (this being the Jewish soul at stake). Despite the severity of the transgression of Lashon Hara, there are times when one is permitted or even obligated to reveal someone's flaws. The Rambam (Hilchot Rotzeiach 1:14) writes "Whoever can save another individual and fails to do so violates the Torah prohibition of Lo Taamod Al Dam Reiacha, do not stand idly by while your brother's blood is being shed. The sages believed that there are seven types of thieves and, of these, the most egregious is the one who "steals the minds" of people (Tosefta Bava Kama 7:3). The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Chullin 94a-b) discusses the principle of geneivat da'at. "Shmuel states: It is forbidden to steal the mind of anyone, even idolaters." Geneivat Da'at: The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat, 228: 6) states that one is not allowed to fool others in buying and selling or to "steal their minds." Thus, if there is a defect in merchandise, the seller is obligated to inform the buyer, even if the buyer is an idolater. I hope that clarifies it for you. Edit: There is absolutely nothing of Jesus in Judaism. --- There is a difference between clarifying accusations of such nature, and speaking badly about a person as well. --

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Savior, while the Messianics do. They are not Jews, they are Christians. It was started by a Southern Baptist minister to convert the Jews.

EDIT: Now that you've emailed me the link. First off it is not what people are picturing. 2nd, what the poster did is EXACTLY what Messanics are doing to Judaism. Making a mockery of Judaism. It is awful & getting mad at the poster for trying to point it out, makes much less sense than getting mad at the people doing it to begin with to us. I wish you'd post the link. Your question makes Jews look bad without a context. That's not fair. Also, the poster is one of the more "intense" styled on here. Anyone regular would read right past that & know people come in all sizes & shapes. (I find her funny same way as some good comedians are over the top & I'd never say that, but funny.) ============ First off the Messanic movement is an attack on Judaism. It's hard to explain counter statements without sounding less than enthused about them. Second can you post a link. You've said the people you respect didn't answer it. We probably didn't see it. I've commented when I think someone's gone overboard. It's hard in YA to comment on anyone of any religion, but I said when something makes me cringe. Third, of course lason doesn't refer only to Jews. That you could even consider that, means we have a long way to go on here at showing people that Jews aren't some ogres that think only of themselves. That creepy piece of sentimentality from anti-semitism really does need to die a death. I know you don't mean it that way at all, but would you think to say that about something Christian? It's one of those subtle things people are unaware is flavoring their thinking. ======= On Messanic movement, they are attacking & being hateful to Judaism. Yet I see complaints mostly about Jewish handling of it. I've asked in answers & have yet to see counter statements about how to explain or wording that would work better & would sound less attacking on Christianity. At any rate, if someone was mean, that's wrong. Without a quote, I can't comment. I have no idea what they said or why or context or who it is, or how they handle other things, OR EVEN IF THEIR JEWISH. Remember one of the problems with others constantly gatecrashing Judaism is that we get tagged for answers none of us gave. (That whole Chosen concept of being better than or special is a Christian one - but we have to explain it over & over again.) Also, I've noticed that although you've starting to get it, you don't fully get what the offense is by the messanics yet. I hope you will. However, that may color your perceptions. Regardless, I'm interested in figuring out how to explain this is ways that Christians don't take as attacks but still get through what the problem is. I've been surprised at how hard it is for some Christians to understand this. It comes out of the same exact thing that causes the Messanics to feel comfortable doing what they do in the first place. It's a part of Christianity that's been taking time to change -- but it is a challenge. I too need to get going. Please post the note & we'll see what the story is. EDIT: You've added details but not the link or original item? Why?? =========== Let me clarify for newcomers to the problem. It's not their having their own religion that's the problem, nor is Christianity a problem to Jews. It's that they insist they are a part if Judaism against the wishes of Jews & tell everyone else they are. They follow in Christ's ways. They makes them Christians. Their beliefs about Judaism are the same one's Christians have had in the past about how Judaism is unacceptable as it is. Christianity has moved past that at least some have, but they're taking the opposite to new levels. Tahulla You're very statement is a lie. 1. Jews define who's Jewish & by Jewish definiton you are not a Jew, but an apostate to Judaism. Ethnicity is Hitler's definiton of Judaism, not a Jewish one. 2. You are using ethnicity to justify calling your different religion Judaism. You religion is mixing up the two definitions you use on purpose. That manipulation is itself a lie. If I'm raised Christian but stop believing in Jesus, that doesn't define lack of believe in Jesus as Christian. No one is taking their heritage away, they are voluntarily leaving it & choosing a new one. Not to mention it was started by Baptists & churches & is funded by them, NOT by Jewish organizations. ==== Tahulla It's not about JPA & you know it. What you do is an assault on Judaism & all of Judaism is not okay with it. Trying to attack JPA for defending Judaism from assault is a classic turn it around technique. But, you have yet to answer to any of our comments or complaints with specific logic, just bashing us for speaking up. Jesus was a Jew who started Chrsitianity. That's no longer Judaism & neither are his followers. And messanics aren't chrisitian because theyre too "somethiing". They're NOT Jewish. They believe Christian & NON-Jewish beliefs as central to their religion. Eli Was not ordained by any Jewish seminary. It is a lie to call himself a Rabbi with the implication that he's a Jewish Rabbi or representing Judaism in some form. "So when it comes to those who practice Messianic Judaism, it would be expected for the other branches within Judaism to lash out at them." From Knight. Baloney, because they aren't Jews. This statement is filled with tactics. Not once does he address actual Jewish concerns stated on here over & over with compassion for our feelings or legitimate counter thoughts on them. They only repeat the mantras they've been taught.

Well, I spent two years in a Messianic 'jews' congregation. So my knowledge is first hand and it is a true statement: they are not Jews. They are Christians in every way. Their Minister when he first met me introduced himself as a 'rabbi'. I believed him. The only reason I left the congregation was because I found out what was going on. They train members in how to discredit Jews. They have meetings for their long term members and they call them 'prayer warriors'. There was not even one Jew by birth in the entire temple. I thought I was following a real sect of the Jewish people, G-d's chosen. But it was not, it was just Christians, and the worst type of Christians.

I read the article. If lashon hara serves as a warning against the possibility of future harm, such communication is not only permissible, but, under certain conditions, compulsory. I would say that this applies to our answers here on YA as regards to those Jews who might be tempted to be seduced by the "Messianic Jewish" movement. Whether or not we are all using the "least blatant means" remains an open question--but one cannot know that without knowing the character of the recipient. And to the extent that I have received e-mails thanking me for delineating what the "Messianic Jewish" movement really is, then I consider that my words *have* brought about the desired result. Shabbat shalom!

It is inappropriate for Messianics to talk to Jews about their beliefs.They are Not Jewish,period. There is no common ground for them to speak. Jews completely reject the Messianics because they do not share Jewish belief.Once you become one you fall outside of the Jewish tradition. It is Not a compatible philosophy. Jews find it offensive when others preach to them as they do not preach to others.

Loshon Hora does not apply when criticizing a movement such as "Messianic judaism" which aims to convert Jews--an immoral act!!! And Jezus is NOT Judaism, my dear.... Your post displays a woeful ignorance of Judaism...

The post in question was not a personal attack, but rather a satire, correct? Lashon Tov (Good Speech) exposes schemes to destroy Jewish souls, with a number options: 1. Copious volumes of words: Explanations which seem to get ignored by those with short attention spans. 2. Satire: A literary work in which human vice, folly or stupidity is attacked through irony, caricature, or wit. 3. Polemic: Sharp, poignant or passionate arguments against a doctrine, philosophy or politics. 4. Humor: Humor is the tendency to provoke laughter and provide amusement. Many theories exist about what humor is and what social function it serves. People of most ages and cultures respond to humor. The majority of people are able to be amused, to laugh or smile at something funny, and thus they are considered to have a "sense of humor". 5. Irony: Irony (from the Ancient Greek εἰρωνεία eironeía, meaning hypocrisy, deception, or feigned ignorance) is a literary or rhetorical device, in which there is an incongruity or discordance between what one says or does, and what one means or what is generally understood. Irony is a mode of expression that calls attention to discrepancy between two levels of knowledge. Sometimes irony, humor, satire or polemic go to the "soul" and "bones" faster than a long academic dissertation. :-) Laughing about it is definitely less physically debilitating than crying. The leadership behind Messianics, are Southern Baptist or Assembly of God, who willfully devise ways to deceive Jewish people into thinking they are Jewish. This is worse than killing a person's body, it is attempting to kill our souls. Not all Messianics are bad. Many sincerely realize something is wrong in Christianity, and are searching. They continue, however, in Christian doctrine with only changing the superficials: Hebrew spellings and buzz words to appear Jewish. Irony and satire can help them to see the incongruities they have created for themselves. BTW: Mz. Rahzi, I thought the post was a classic. Just delightful. And that someone actually found a picture of a Channukah ham is funny beyond words.

The appropriate way to talk about the "Messianic Judaism" movement is to expose them for being a fraudlent, deceptive organization who, if successful in what they want to do, would result in the total elimination of our religion! One of the most basic tenents of Judaism, of ALL branches of Judaism, is the belief in ONE God. No Jew on earth believes in Jesus in any way--we are all united in this regardless of our denomination. Those who call themselves "Messianic Jews" take our rituals and practices and twist and distort them to focus everything around Jesus (or Yeshua or whatever they call him) and add the Christian New Testament to their bible. Yet they say they are Jews! And you expect us to be nice to them? In the 1940's, would you have expected us to be nice to the Nazis? They too would have destroyed Judaism if they had their way.