JWs, Has your God performed THE greatest act of love?

Greetings, Your interpretation of this verse is fatally flawed. And your conclusion that God died contradicts what God’s Word explicitly states! If your interpretation were correct and a man dying for friends was greatEST (superlative degree) act of love then dying for friends would be greater than Christ’s dying for enemies. Clearly such an interpretation is manifestly incorrect! If a man “dies for his friends” has he "outdone" Jesus’ dying for “enemies” because the man did the greatest act of love in giving his soul for his friends? Rm.5:6-10 also demonstrates that someone dying for a “righteous man” or a “good man” is inferior to Christ’s dying for the wicked and enemies! Your interpretation places dying for friends as a greater act of love than Christ’s dying for *sinful* humans! Since your interpretation demeans Christ’s ransom there is clearly something wrong with your interpretation! Your interpretation is further shown to be incorrect because a man’s giving his life for his friend only saves the friends temporary life (Ps 49:7, 8). But Christ’s dying provided justification before God and everlasting life! (Jn 3:16; Rm 5:6-10, 15,16; 1Jn 4:9,10; 1Jn 5:11-13). So clearly a person dying for his friend CANNOT be the greatEST in an absolute sense!! John 15:13 must be understood in a limited sense as the context clearly shows. Verse 12 sets the scope of his statement as pertaining to the disciples showing love to each other. Dying for a fellow human *is* the greatest love that can be show by imperfect humans but it cannot equal Christ’s giving his perfect human life! It cannot equal God sending His son to die for sinful humans! It is blatant eisegesis to rip this verse out of context in a desperate attempt to support a belief which contradicts the explicit teaching of God’s Word! The Bible holds no implication of "theocide." Scripture always says God's *Son,* came as a *human* and died as the ransom, never Jehovah God. It also explicitly states that this *one* human death paid the ransom for *all* humankind (Rm. 5:12ff; 1Cor.15:44-45; 2Cor.5:14; 5:21; 1Tim.2:5-6). The scriptures never say Almighty GOD had to die. Really, can we reasonably elevate humans to the level that it would require God, the Almighty Creator to die as a ransom? How presumptuous this would be! Show me how this would not be a contradiction of God's Word: "Surely you, Yahweh, are from ancient times, my holy God, who never dies!"-- Hab.1:12 JER (Dan.6:26; Ps. 90:1, 2 etc.) Thus Almighty God cannot die, yet Jesus did die. Thus Jesus is Not God (Acts 5:30; 1Cor. 15:3; cf. Nu 23:19). If Jesus died, he cannot be God, for God cannot die. If Jesus is God, he cannot have died, for God cannot die. If Jesus did not in fact die then the ransom for mankind has not been paid. The Biblical teaching that Jesus died and was resurrected by God proves that Jesus and God are distinct and not equal in essence or ontologically Many Trinitarians try to avoid this fatal contradiction in their belief by resorting to a "two nature" theory. However, the argument that only the human part of Jesus died is a denial that God died for us. So the doctrine of the double nature of Christ not only conflicts with Scripture, it conflicts with the Trinitarian doctrine itself. If Jesus is the whole person and Jesus died, he cannot be immortal Deity. Trinitarians argue that only Deity is sufficient to provide the necessary atonement. But if the divine nature did not die, the ransom for mankind could not have been paid according to Trinitarian belief. It is clear that *explicit Scriptures* contradict your interpretation and your theological presuppositions. Further, your claim that “the verb φανερόω in Paul’s time is a ‘technical term’ for a god manifesting in visible form is a Logical Fallacy (Appeal to selective evidence; selective use of information; incomplete research). Those who post such simplistic and fallacious criticisms depend on those who do not do even the most basic of research. A highly dishonest method of argumentation. Would you like to quote the standard usage of FANEROW from BGD Lexicon instead of just one usage?!!! Kittel’s TDNT: “In the N.T. FANEROV always has the original sense and is not a theological term even though found in important theological connections. The primary reference is to what is visible to sensory perception...” FANEROW simply describes an external manifestation and is NEVER exclusive of a “God’s manifestation”! (c.f.; BDAG, Friberg, Liddel-Scott, Grimm/Thayer). If we gullibly accepted your definition then wicked things and apostates would also be God! Because FANEROW is used of wicked men and things being “manifested”!! Are Christians also God’s since the word is used of them?!! (Mr 4:22; Jn 3:21; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 3:3; 5:10,11; 11:6; Eph 5:13; 1Jn 2:19; etc.) The most simplest of research disproves your claims regarding FANEROW! Yours, BAR-ANERGES

Greetings, Your interpretation of this verse is fatally flawed. And your conclusion that God died contradicts what God’s Word explicitly states! If your interpretation were correct and a man dying for friends was greatEST (superlative degree) act of love then dying for friends would be greater than Christ’s dying for enemies. Clearly such an interpretation is manifestly incorrect! If a man “dies for his friends” has he "outdone" Jesus’ dying for “enemies” because the man did the greatest act of love in giving his soul for his friends? Rm.5:6-10 also demonstrates that someone dying for a “righteous man” or a “good man” is inferior to Christ’s dying for the wicked and enemies! Your interpretation places dying for friends as a greater act of love than Christ’s dying for *sinful* humans! Since your interpretation demeans Christ’s ransom there is clearly something wrong with your interpretation! Your interpretation is further shown to be incorrect because a man’s giving his life for his friend only saves the friends temporary life (Ps 49:7, 8). But Christ’s dying provided justification before God and everlasting life! (Jn 3:16; Rm 5:6-10, 15,16; 1Jn 4:9,10; 1Jn 5:11-13). So clearly a person dying for his friend CANNOT be the greatEST in an absolute sense!! John 15:13 must be understood in a limited sense as the context clearly shows. Verse 12 sets the scope of his statement as pertaining to the disciples showing love to each other. Dying for a fellow human *is* the greatest love that can be show by imperfect humans but it cannot equal Christ’s giving his perfect human life! It cannot equal God sending His son to die for sinful humans! It is blatant eisegesis to rip this verse out of context in a desperate attempt to support a belief which contradicts the explicit teaching of God’s Word! The Bible holds no implication of "theocide." Scripture always says God's *Son,* came as a *human* and died as the ransom, never Jehovah God. It also explicitly states that this *one* human death paid the ransom for *all* humankind (Rm. 5:12ff; 1Cor.15:44-45; 2Cor.5:14; 5:21; 1Tim.2:5-6). The scriptures never say Almighty GOD had to die. Really, can we reasonably elevate humans to the level that it would require God, the Almighty Creator to die as a ransom? How presumptuous this would be! Show me how this would not be a contradiction of God's Word: "Surely you, Yahweh, are from ancient times, my holy God, who never dies!"-- Hab.1:12 JER (Dan.6:26; Ps. 90:1, 2 etc.) Thus Almighty God cannot die, yet Jesus did die. Thus Jesus is Not God (Acts 5:30; 1Cor. 15:3; cf. Nu 23:19). If Jesus died, he cannot be God, for God cannot die. If Jesus is God, he cannot have died, for God cannot die. If Jesus did not in fact die then the ransom for mankind has not been paid. The Biblical teaching that Jesus died and was resurrected by God proves that Jesus and God are distinct and not equal in essence or ontologically Many Trinitarians try to avoid this fatal contradiction in their belief by resorting to a "two nature" theory. However, the argument that only the human part of Jesus died is a denial that God died for us. So the doctrine of the double nature of Christ not only conflicts with Scripture, it conflicts with the Trinitarian doctrine itself. If Jesus is the whole person and Jesus died, he cannot be immortal Deity. Trinitarians argue that only Deity is sufficient to provide the necessary atonement. But if the divine nature did not die, the ransom for mankind could not have been paid according to Trinitarian belief. It is clear that *explicit Scriptures* contradict your interpretation and your theological presuppositions. Further, your claim that “the verb φανερόω in Paul’s time is a ‘technical term’ for a god manifesting in visible form is a Logical Fallacy (Appeal to selective evidence; selective use of information; incomplete research). Those who post such simplistic and fallacious criticisms depend on those who do not do even the most basic of research. A highly dishonest method of argumentation. Would you like to quote the standard usage of FANEROW from BGD Lexicon instead of just one usage?!!! Kittel’s TDNT: “In the N.T. FANEROV always has the original sense and is not a theological term even though found in important theological connections. The primary reference is to what is visible to sensory perception...” FANEROW simply describes an external manifestation and is NEVER exclusive of a “God’s manifestation”! (c.f.; BDAG, Friberg, Liddel-Scott, Grimm/Thayer). If we gullibly accepted your definition then wicked things and apostates would also be God! Because FANEROW is used of wicked men and things being “manifested”!! Are Christians also God’s since the word is used of them?!! (Mr 4:22; Jn 3:21; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 3:3; 5:10,11; 11:6; Eph 5:13; 1Jn 2:19; etc.) The most simplest of research disproves your claims regarding FANEROW! Yours, BAR-ANERGES

Many religious people say that Jesus is God. Some claim that God is a Trinity. According to this teaching, “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” It is held that the three “are co-eternal and co-equal.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia) Are such views correct? Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32. Moreover, Jesus prayed to his Father: “Let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was Jesus praying if not to a superior Personage? Furthermore, it was God who resurrected Jesus from the dead, not Jesus himself. (Acts 2:32) Obviously, the Father and the Son were not equal before Jesus came to the earth or during his earthly life. What about after Jesus’ resurrection to heaven? First Corinthians 11:3 states: “The head of the Christ is God.” In fact, the Son will always be in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28) The Scriptures therefore show that Jesus is not God Almighty. Instead, he is God’s Son. The so-called third person of the Trinity—the holy spirit—is not a person. Addressing God in prayer, the psalmist said: “If you send forth your spirit, they are created.” (Psalm 104:30) This spirit is not God himself; it is an active force that he sends forth or uses to accomplish whatever he wishes. By means of it, God created the physical heavens, the earth, and all living things. (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 33:6) God used his holy spirit to inspire the men who wrote the Bible. (2 Peter 1:20, 21) The Trinity, then, is not a Scriptural teaching.* “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,” says the Bible.—Deuteronomy 6:4.

Many religious people say that Jesus is God. Some claim that God is a Trinity. According to this teaching, “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” It is held that the three “are co-eternal and co-equal.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia) Are such views correct? Jehovah God is the Creator. (Revelation 4:11) He is without beginning or end, and he is almighty. (Psalm 90:2) Jesus, on the other hand, had a beginning. (Colossians 1:15, 16) Referring to God as his Father, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) Jesus also explained that there were some things neither he nor the angels knew but that were known only by his Father.—Mark 13:32. Moreover, Jesus prayed to his Father: “Let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was Jesus praying if not to a superior Personage? Furthermore, it was God who resurrected Jesus from the dead, not Jesus himself. (Acts 2:32) Obviously, the Father and the Son were not equal before Jesus came to the earth or during his earthly life. What about after Jesus’ resurrection to heaven? First Corinthians 11:3 states: “The head of the Christ is God.” In fact, the Son will always be in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28) The Scriptures therefore show that Jesus is not God Almighty. Instead, he is God’s Son. The so-called third person of the Trinity—the holy spirit—is not a person. Addressing God in prayer, the psalmist said: “If you send forth your spirit, they are created.” (Psalm 104:30) This spirit is not God himself; it is an active force that he sends forth or uses to accomplish whatever he wishes. By means of it, God created the physical heavens, the earth, and all living things. (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 33:6) God used his holy spirit to inspire the men who wrote the Bible. (2 Peter 1:20, 21) The Trinity, then, is not a Scriptural teaching.* “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,” says the Bible.—Deuteronomy 6:4.

Not a JW, but WOW, that's a really good point! Why would Almighty Jehovah expect an angel or a mere man to make the ultimate sacrifice that He wouldn't even make! The fact is Jehovah did make that sacrifice - because Jehovah's Son was an intrinsic Part of Himself - Begotten from Jehovah, not created from the dust of the earth like all the rest of mankind. I see Jehovah as making the ultimate sacrifice by sending his most beloved Son - not just a creature - but the Begotten loved child which was 100% Diety to die for us unworthy ones. Certainly Jehovah loved his only Son as much as we love our children. I cannot imagine giving up my little grandson to die for ungrateful people, can you? If you think about it, whose DNA did Jesus have? He couldn't have had 100% DNA from Mary, because she can only contribute 50% and even if a clone of Mary she could never produce a male. So I believe Jesus' DNA was transferred in a miraculous way from the Father, who materialized it from Himself, and Jesus was much more than an angel or created man of dust. Now I agree Jesus is a separate Person and Jehovah is Greater! Who says they have to be equal in every aspect? The bible says Jehovah is greater, so that's that. But they are equal in Deity - just as a man is stronger than a woman but both are equal in being human, so Jesus and Jehovah are both God. Of course this is why in both Old and New Testaments Jesus is referred to as "God With Us". I care about the JW's and realize that even their founder worshipped Jesus so if Russell worshipped him, and according to them he is in heaven, maybe they will see this truth. Some will I believe.

"GOD was manifest in the flesh." (1 Tim 3:16 King James Version) Why do most Bibles read differently? "HE was manifested in the flesh." (ESV) "HE who was revealed in the flesh." (NASB) "HE was revealed in the flesh." (NRSV) "Quod manifestatum est in carne." "WHICH was manifested in the flesh." -- Latin Vulgate, 4th century "pai entafouwnh ebol hn tcarx" "THIS ONE who was manifested in the flesh." -- Sahidic Coptic Bible, 2nd/3rd century Many other examples could be cited, but these get the point across. "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is not found in the earliest manuscripts. It actually occurs quite late in the extant Greek manuscripts. So the modern refined master texts, such as Westcott and Hort or Nestle-Aland, prefer the earlier readings. Most modern Bible translations are based on these master texts. Changing "which" ("He") to "God" in the Greek required just a small dash. "Which" was "OC" in the Greek, whereas "God" was "ΘC." Was this a mistake? Or was it a Catholic scholar trying to "clarify" this text, trying to "help" the Bible explain his treasured Trinity doctrine? Why is the faulty reading in the King James Version? Because it was a translation which was produced when Europe still hadn't completely emerged from the Dark Ages, whose translation committee still thought blood-letting was a pretty neat idea.

"GOD was manifest in the flesh." (1 Tim 3:16 King James Version) Why do most Bibles read differently? "HE was manifested in the flesh." (ESV) "HE who was revealed in the flesh." (NASB) "HE was revealed in the flesh." (NRSV) "Quod manifestatum est in carne." "WHICH was manifested in the flesh." -- Latin Vulgate, 4th century "pai entafouwnh ebol hn tcarx" "THIS ONE who was manifested in the flesh." -- Sahidic Coptic Bible, 2nd/3rd century Many other examples could be cited, but these get the point across. "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is not found in the earliest manuscripts. It actually occurs quite late in the extant Greek manuscripts. So the modern refined master texts, such as Westcott and Hort or Nestle-Aland, prefer the earlier readings. Most modern Bible translations are based on these master texts. Changing "which" ("He") to "God" in the Greek required just a small dash. "Which" was "OC" in the Greek, whereas "God" was "ΘC." Was this a mistake? Or was it a Catholic scholar trying to "clarify" this text, trying to "help" the Bible explain his treasured Trinity doctrine? Why is the faulty reading in the King James Version? Because it was a translation which was produced when Europe still hadn't completely emerged from the Dark Ages, whose translation committee still thought blood-letting was a pretty neat idea.

Not a JW, but WOW, that's a really good point! Why would Almighty Jehovah expect an angel or a mere man to make the ultimate sacrifice that He wouldn't even make! The fact is Jehovah did make that sacrifice - because Jehovah's Son was an intrinsic Part of Himself - Begotten from Jehovah, not created from the dust of the earth like all the rest of mankind. I see Jehovah as making the ultimate sacrifice by sending his most beloved Son - not just a creature - but the Begotten loved child which was 100% Diety to die for us unworthy ones. Certainly Jehovah loved his only Son as much as we love our children. I cannot imagine giving up my little grandson to die for ungrateful people, can you? If you think about it, whose DNA did Jesus have? He couldn't have had 100% DNA from Mary, because she can only contribute 50% and even if a clone of Mary she could never produce a male. So I believe Jesus' DNA was transferred in a miraculous way from the Father, who materialized it from Himself, and Jesus was much more than an angel or created man of dust. Now I agree Jesus is a separate Person and Jehovah is Greater! Who says they have to be equal in every aspect? The bible says Jehovah is greater, so that's that. But they are equal in Deity - just as a man is stronger than a woman but both are equal in being human, so Jesus and Jehovah are both God. Of course this is why in both Old and New Testaments Jesus is referred to as "God With Us". I care about the JW's and realize that even their founder worshipped Jesus so if Russell worshipped him, and according to them he is in heaven, maybe they will see this truth. Some will I believe.

I'm not JW, just want to share the difference between the JW's jesus and the Jesus of the bible who is the great "I AM". Is Jesus God? JW view Jesus is not Jehovah. Jesus is "a god," the Son of God, but not the Almighty God ("Those Who Are Called 'Gods,'" Awake! [April 22, 2005]). Jesus was created as Michael the Archangel prior to coming to earth (The Truth Shall Make You Free, 49; Russel, At-One-Ment Between God and Man, 84; Joseph Rutherford, The Kingdom Is at Hand, 49). He was “the first and direct creation of Jehovah God” (The Kingdom Is at Hand, 46-47). Michael then created all other things (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 408-409). Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus has always been the only true God there is along with the Father and Holy Ghost (Ibid; Jn. 1:1-3 and 14; 5:18-23; 8:56-59; 20:28-29; Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Colossians 1:13-18 with Isaiah 44:24; Hebrews 1:2-12; Revelation 1:7-8, 17-18; and 22:6, 12-20 with Isa. 44:6). If Jesus is not the true God, then He would be a false god, since the Bible teaches that "all the gods of the peoples are idols, but the LORD made the heavens" (Psalm 96:5 and Jn. 17:3). Since the above verses teach that Jesus created the heavens and that Jehovah did it alone, Jesus must at least be one of the members of Jehovah. To teach otherwise is to devalue Jesus. 1. Jesus claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:56-59 (see Exodus 3:14); John 10:30-33 2. Jesus is called God - John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8 3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God - Heb. 1:3 4. Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24 5. Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17 6. Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17; 7. Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2 8. Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23 9. Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4; (John 14:14) 10. Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6 11. Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20 12. Jesus is with us always - Matt. 28:20 13. Jesus is our only mediator between God and ourselves - 1 Tim. 2:5 14. Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant - Heb. 7:22; 8:6 15. Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of Life" - John 6:35,41,48,51 16. Jesus said, "I AM the Door" - John 10:7,9 17. Jesus said, "I AM the Good Shepherd" - John 10:11,14 18. Jesus said, "I AM the Way the Truth and The Life" - John 14:6 19. Jesus said, "I AM the Light of the world" - John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46; Luke 2:32 20. Jesus said, "I AM the True Vine" - John 15:1,5 21. Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life" - John 11:25 22. Jesus said, "I AM the First and the Last" - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 23. Jesus always lives to make intercession for us - Heb. 7:25 24. Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9 25. Jesus cleanses us from our sins by His blood - Rev. 1:5; Rom. 5:9 26. Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48 27. Jesus saves forever - Matt. 18:11; John 10:28; Heb. 7:25 28. Jesus discloses Himself to us - John 14:21 29. Jesus draws all men to Himself - John 12:32 30. Jesus gives eternal life - John 10:28; 5:40 31. Jesus resurrects - John 5:39; 6:40,44,54; 11:25-26 32. Jesus gives joy - John 15:11 33. Jesus gives peace - John 14:27 34. Jesus has all authority - Matt. 28:18; John 5:26-27; 17:2; 3:35