How can I maintain a 4.0 high school GPA?

What chance do I have for getting accepted to a U.S. medical school?

• I want to know my chances of getting accepted to medical school. My first choice would be UCSF or Stanford, my second choice would be another U.S. medical school and my last choice would be an offshore medical school. I have done some preliminary research on schools, admissions requirements, and student profiles. Let me describe me and a little my preliminary findings. I wish to go to medical school to be a medical doctor -- practicing medicine, either as Family Practicioner or Internal Medicine. I am 46 years old. I live and work in the San Francisco Bay Area. A "non-traditional" med student is anyone over 27 years of age -- nearly 20 years younger than myself. Should I be concerned? The oldest person recently accepted at UCSF is 37 -- http://www.som.ucsf.edu/som/education/admission/requirements.asp# . I went to the AMCAS web site and clicked on "contact schools", then clicked on the schools in Missouri, Arkansas and Kansas, and looked at the student profiles. http://www.aamc.org/meded/medschls/admissions.htm The reason I looked at schools there is because I grew up in Kansas, have relatives in KS and MO, and vacationed in AR. I believe it was KY med school lists the oldest student at age 39. (Missouri only accepts residents in contigous states.) I am a California resident. Last year at age 45 I graduated Magna Cum Laude with my Bachelor of Science in Computer Information Systems (IS -- not engineering) from Golden Gate U in San Francisco. Graduating with honors was accidental -- I never dreamed or expected that would happen. To go to med school, I need to pick up the pre-med classes -- 2 years chemistry, 1 year biology and 1 year physics (minimum). The student profiles for the schools I looked at all had high GPA's in the science classes -- 3.7. I doubt that I could do that. COMFORTABLY, I could earn B or B+ average. An average above that would be POSSIBLE but UNCERTAIN for me. I would be at least 49 or 50 by the time I finish pre-med. And let's assume I DON'T have a 3.7 GPA in the sciences. Assume that I CAN get a top score on the MCAT. Also, UCSF looks at the "breadth and depth" of extracurricular activities. As I worked my way through undergraduate school, I basically have none at this time. I continue to work a regular 40-hour work week. What kind of medical volunteer work would I need to start doing? What if I were to construct and operate a web site on the medical needs for aging baby boomers -- especially women? Have I got any chance of getting into any U.S. medical school? What would be my chances of getting into UCSF? Stanford? Into any U.S. medical school -- private or public? Can you name any school that has taken students my age and with a B or B+ average in the sciences? What about offshore schools? Please list the web sites of any schools any any information where I would have a good chance -- a reasonable chance -- of getting accepted. Also, I looked at Judy Colwell's web site (www.judycolwell.com) which I found from Google Answers. It seems to me that I almost need to know that I could get accepted to med school before I plunge into the pre-med classes. I know about "Early Decision" but those are for residents of the state. Is there any U.S. or offshore school where I could know in advance? Thank you. Cynthia Diane

• Answer:

  Hello Cynthia Diane, You’re confronted with a very tough decision. It looks like you’ve already done a lot of research and you’re hoping that a Google Researcher could come up with something more positive. I found a lot of information about the issues involved in making your decision on whether or not going to medical school at this stage of your life is possible and worth the time and effort. I will highlight my findings taking into account the information you shared about yourself. -------------------------------------------- SUMMARY OF YOUR EDUCATION AND QUALIFICATIONS -------------------------------------------- I’ve distilled the information you gave about yourself into the following summary: Age 46 BS Computer Science from Golden Gate University, 2002 Magna cum Laude, GPA ? Goal: MD in Family Practice or Internal Medicine Target Schools: 1) UCSF Medical School or Stanford Medical School, 2) US medical school, 3) foreign medical school. Need post-baccalaureate pre-med science courses – approximately 2 years. Expect to earn 3.0 GPA for pre-med science course work. MCAT expected score top range. No related extracurricular activities. ---------------------------------------------- ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE FOR NON-TRADITIONAL SUCCESS ---------------------------------------------- My search of the Web revealed one stellar example of someone who is in your age bracket who succeeded in medical school. I’m giving you the information about him for inspiration and to help you with getting an idea of what it takes to be taken seriously as a non-traditional student. http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/101199/new_doctor.html Dr. Robert Lopatin speaks to Ramona Cosme at Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx borough of New York, Tuesday, Sept. 21, 1999. At 55, Lopatin, fresh out of medical school, is one of the oldest first-year residents in the country. http://www.aarp.org/mmaturity/jan_feb00/charge.html As it was, he excelled in the three-year program. But Lopatin wasn’t just another student: His age evoked strong reactions. … He felt that some schools interviewed him only because they had to, due to his high grades and admission-test scores. http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1999/11/23/p20s1.htm LIFELONG LEARNING How do you fare if you're not 19? Seniors heading back to school find it harder to get in and fit in the second time around. Special to The Christian Science Monitor, 11/23/99 Engineering, accounting, and medicine are other fields seemingly stacked against seniors. Robert Lopatin is drawing attention for having graduated from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York this spring at the age of 55. But when he had first approached a premed program, an adviser told him, "You're not going to get into medical school." -------------------------------- CONFRONTING THE REALITIES OF AGE -------------------------------- I’ve collected some statistics to give you a realistic view of how many people are accepted into medical school at your age. I’m afraid the numbers are dismal. The survey’s I’ve been able to locate show that you would be in the 99th percentile in any school. You will have to be extremely assertive and convincing in your presentation regarding your motivation to become a physician. Because of anti-discrimination laws no one will ever admit that your age is a factor in evaluating your qualifications, but there will always be an underlying context. In addition to the statistics I’m also including some articles and advice columns. I’m also including a couple of articles about age discrimination charges against medical institutions by doctors who feel they’ve been bypassed in favor of younger colleagues. Some of these doctors are close in age to the age you will be when you’re likely to graduate. I don’t want to discourage you, but I think it’s important to understand the realities of the profession you’re moving into. http://www.aamc.org/sitemap/start.htm Association of American Medical Colleges ****** Offers a wide variety of resources including statistical reports. See below. http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm FACTS - Applicants, Matriculants and Graduates The tables listed below are the most comprehensive sources of information regarding medical school applicants, matriculants, and graduates available to the public free of charge. http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/famg112001a.htm Applicant Age at Anticipated Matriculation, 1992-2001 http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/famg122001a.htm Matriculant Age at Anticipated Matriculation, 1992-2001 NonTraditional Medical Student Getting into Medical School: A Guide for Nontraditional Students Applying to medical school is a highly competitive process, where the number of seats in U.S. schools far outstrips demand. The odds are even higher for nontraditional students. In 1998-1999, the overall acceptance rate was about 42%. For applicants age 32 and older, the acceptance rate was 26%. While this may partly be due to age discrimination, a major reason for the lower acceptance rate is that older students tend to have lower grades and MCAT scores if they have been out of school for a number of years. Estimating Your Chances To be in a realistic position, you should be in line with the average MCAT scores and GPA for other matriculants, which is about a 3.55 GPA and 30 MCAT. Note that less than 5% of students who enter medical school have a GPA of 3.0 or less, and most of them probably have extenuating circumstances which offset their low GPA. For example, a low GPA may be offset by a high MCAT score. If your grades are below the averages listed here, you may want to consider ways to improve your standing, which I discuss under the Second Chance link. http://www.nyu.edu/cas/prehealth/gaold.htm General advice to older students The probability of "older" students gaining acceptance into medical school is significantly less that of their younger counterparts. ***** This article has a fairly negative attitude toward “older” medical school applicants and gives a lot of pointers for older students who want to try anyway. http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/july01/physiciansupply.htm Addressing the Question of Physician Supply in America http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/july01/start.htm Mature Faculty Bring Benefit of Experience to Medical Schools Interesting chart on the aging of medical school faculty. http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_00/mksc0124.htm Kaiser drops bonus after age complaint Kaiser Permanente says it gave bonuses to doctors with fewer than 15 years experience because of sharper skills, but a doctor says it was age discrimination. http://www.epmonthly.com/EPEffJobSearch.asp?showarchive=1&artname=174 Age Discrimination in EM: Part I of II --------------------------------------------------- EXAMINING GRADES, TEST SCORES, OTHER QUALIFICATIONS --------------------------------------------------- After dealing with the age issues, you must take a close look at the importance of the qualification requirements, both objective and subjective. Your GPA for your undergraduate degree is high. You believe that your grades for the pre-med science courses you will have to take will be around 3.0 on a 4 point scale. You assume that you will do very well on the MCAT. Medical schools emphasize the importance of related extracurricular activity and you say that you don’t have anything that would qualify or impress at this point. I’ve collected some information about the importance of these qualification requirements and how your record would stack up against the competition. I’ve also included some links and articles that help you think through how to best present yourself when you fill out your applications. Everything I’ve found seems to say that you would have to have a stellar GPA and MCAT along with exceptionally persuasive extracurricular activities to be a strong contender to overcome the age issue. http://www.premed411.com/PMZ/enter22.html The Premed Zone The average age of all applicants is 25 yrs old, and the average age of applicants accepted is between 24 and 25 yrs old. The percentage accepted is greatest for the 21-23 yrs old group at 46%, 36% for 24-27 yrs old, and 11.2% for 28-31 yrs old. The decline in acceptance with age is, I believe, largely due to differences in GPA and MCAT scores, rather than due to age discrimination. Right now about 40% of all applicants are getting accepted. The competition is tough, but if you can get a 3.6 GPA or better in premedical science courses, and do well on the MCAT, then you will have a good shot at admission--your age should not even be a consideration. http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~mikeg/medsec.html The MCAT One thing that may help balance out a low GPA is getting a higher than average score on the MCAT. There is a catch, though. Remember that the MCAT is based on General Biology, General Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. So if you didn't ace these courses, you most likely will do poorly on the MCAT. http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/ucsf/ UCSF School of Medicine Applicants accepted: 5.0% Average MCAT: 11.4 Average GPA (4.0 scale): 3.71 http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/stanford/ Stanford University School of Medicine Applicants accepted: 3.3% Average MCAT: 11.1 Average GPA (4.0 scale): 3.70 -------------------------------------------- CONSIDERATIONS FOR CHOOSING A MEDICAL SCHOOL -------------------------------------------- In this section I’ve included some links for choosing and evaluating medical schools, both foreign and domestic. I think you might be familiar with some of these already. Although you asked for advice and recommendations on some that would meet your needs I haven’t picked any for you. These sites include so many search options that I think it will be much more productive for you to do your own searches. Instead, I’m including some links that will help you develop criteria for yourself for how to choose and evaluate schools you might want to attend. http://www.aamc.org/students/considering/postbac/start.htm Postbaccalaureate Premedical Programs Many persons decide to pursue a career in medicine after earning a Bachelor's degree. Frequently they must complete additional course work in the sciences before applying to medical school. http://www.sunysb.edu/healthed/foreign.html FOREIGN MEDICAL SCHOOLS:LINKS TO FIND OUT ABOUT THEM, A LIST OF A FEW STRONG ONES, AND SOME GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS ***** This is a very good collection of links for exploring the issues around attending a foreign medical school. http://www.aaimg.com/misst.html The American Association of International Medical Graduates, hereafter referred to as AAIMG, was founded in 1992 as a non-profit organization to promote acceptance of United States citizen international medical graduates into mainstream American medical practice. http://www.ecfmg.org/ Through its program of certification, the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) assesses the readiness of international medical graduates to enter residency or fellowship programs in the United States that are accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). -------------------------------------- RESOURCES FOR NON-TRADITIONAL STUDENTS -------------------------------------- In this section I’ve collected some links that are dedicated to the needs of non-traditional students. I’m including some additional consultants so you can compare what Judy Colwell offers to others who provide similar services. http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~mikeg/medschool.html By Mike Grasso The purpose of this web site is to discuss how to get into medical school as an older, nontraditional student. http://www.premed411.com/home.html "THE PREMED ZONE" is Richard Hochstim's trademark for his premedical information service site on the internet. http://www.traditionaldegrees.com/ Traditional Degrees for Nontraditional Students by Carole Fungaroli Sargent, Ph.D., published in March, 2000 by Farrar, Straus & Giroux. http://www.nontrad.org/ National NonTraditional Students Association http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/med-school-admissions.html Medical School Admissions Consulting http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/apply/articles/process/nontradApplication.asp Application Tips for Nontraditional Applicants http://www.lewisassoc.com/lewis1.htm Lewis Associates Medical Strategies – Counseling and Placement Advising ***** See section on Non-Traditional Students http://www.oldpremeds.net/ National Society for Non-Traditional Pre-Medical and Medical Students, Inc. ---------- CONCLUSION ---------- Cynthia, I hope that the information I’ve collected will give you a more comprehensive overview of the issues you’re facing in trying to decide what to do about medical school. Based on my research, my conclusion is that if you’re very persistent, very dedicated and focused you should be able to reach your goal of practicing medicine. But getting into a medical school will not be easy. The odds are very heavily against you. I suggest that you review these materials and then discuss your options with a trusted advisor. Be sure to include your spouse, significant other, family, friends and other support systems in your consideration of your decision. Get input from those you trust and strategize on how to proceed. I hope that this research meets your needs. Please be sure to ask for clarification on anything that needs further explanation. I wish you clarity for your choice and great success in whatever you decide to do. czh SEARCH STRATEGY "age discrimination" "medical school" admissions "medical school" age admissions "medical school" non-traditional