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What changes in police training, policies, and procedures would decrease the risk of children with toy guns being killed by police?

  • This is prompted by news reports that the police investigation of Andy Lopez’s death has been completed and sent to the District Attorney; see http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140129/articles/140129499.  This was the incident in October in California during which a deputy sheriff fatally shot a 13-year-old boy who was walking down the street carrying an airsoft toy rifle that resembled a real AK-47.  There was much discussion on Quora and elsewhere about the correctness or lack thereof of the officer’s actions.   I have continued to think about the incident and the issues it raises because I continued to be uneasy, feeling that no one had suggested a real solution to the problem, and that there is something very wrong when a kid can be killed by the police for walking down the street doing nothing illegal.  (Perhaps, he did something a little illegal.  Is it a crime to possess a toy rifle that does not have a red barrel tip?) Many Quorans thought that the officers were correct to assume that the rifle was real.  After pondering the issue, I decided that I didn't know enough about the specific circumstances and surroundings to have an opinion, but that if I saw a 13-year-old carrying such a rifle in my neighborhood, I would think it was very likely a toy because I have seen kids with toy guns many times, but never any with real ones.  I wouldn't feel threatened unless there was something else about him or the circumstances to add concern. Many emphasized that if there were no realistic toy guns, such incidents would not happen and/or that parents should not allow children to have them (because it might get them shot by police).  That cannot be a solution because: Thirteen-year-olds have poor judgment. Their poor judgment causes them to want to do foolish, risky things. They conceal their foolish behavior from their parents because they don’t want to be stopped. Everyone wants his toy gun to be realistic because that is cool, and he may make efforts to make it more realistic, e.g., paint the red barrel tip black. Having been thirteen, albeit a very long time ago, and having been a parent, I know these things to be true.  Because they are, the solution cannot lie solely in trying to keep kids from having realistic-looking toy guns. I have been told many times that in situations in which one thinks he is in immediate danger “your training takes over.”  The shooter in this case had served as an infantryman in Iraq.  I wondered if his military training instead of his police training took over.  He probably had only experienced having someone turn toward him holding an apparent assault rifle while serving in a war zone as a soldier, where much less restraint is appropriate than for a policeman in the US.  Did he just go onto combat-infantryman autopilot and cease rationally analyzing what he was seeing?  Did he see a rifle being brought to bear when it was not?  Should his employer, knowing of his military training and experience, have made more effort to train him to react as a policeman, not as a combat infantryman? One salient fact about this incident is that only ten seconds elapsed between the initial radio call about a suspicious person and the shooting, so it seems that practically no time was spent on risk assessment, thinking about what might go wrong and how to minimize the risk---to everyone, whether it was the best time and place for a confrontation to be safest for everyone, or different scenarios that might unfold and how the officers would respond.  It was obvious that the officers could not have reasonably thought initially that an https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=off&biw=1920&bih=1017&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F1%2F2013%2Ccd_max%3A11%2F8%2F2013&q=imminent+threat&spell=1&sa=X&ei=zLDtUo_PFcWPqwHtsYGYDw&ved=0CCgQvwUoAA to anyone existed, so there was no good reason not to take a minute or two to observe, think, analyze, plan, and attempt to anticipate events and possible responses and outcomes.  It is incredible to me that someone who thought he was about to enter a dangerous situation, and who had the opportunity to take a little time to observe and think, would not do so out of concern for his own wellbeing, if for no other reason.  If they had, it might have occurred to them that it is natural for people to turn toward the speaker when accosted, and that, if that happened, they would feel threatened.  It might have occurred to them that it was possible that the gun was a toy.  It might have occurred to them that both of those together could lead to a real tragedy, so perhaps they needed a new plan, like passing by, turning around after a block or two, and approaching from the front.  It might have occurred to them that, if they approached from the front, they would learn more about to walker, which might be valuable.  Perhaps they would not have thought of any of these things, but not even trying to think things through when preparing to confront someone you think has an AK-47 can’t be very smart or very good practice, can it?  So, shouldn't police be trained to think through what they are getting ready to do when the circumstances permit? There are probably many other things that could be considered.  This isn't the first time that a kid with a toy gun was killed by the police, and it won’t be the last.  Surely the law enforcement community is keen to avoid these deaths.  The only relevant things that they control are their own training, policies, practices, etc., so the only thing they can do to make these incidents less frequent is to try to change those things in ways that will help.

  • Answer:

    I can't think of any police training that would mitigate this problem and not endanger officers. Teaching cops to hesitate before they open fire on someone pointing a firearm at them is likely to get more cops killed. If there is a way to reduce the number or lethality of these incidents, I think it's in educating people not to point guns, or anything that looks like a gun, at a cop. That's a much taller order and I don't have a lot of hope for it happening, but that's my best offer.

Tim Dees at Quora Visit the source

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Let me tell you exactly how long that an officer has to make a decision of this nature.  Zero. Zero seconds.  0.000000 Seconds. Actually, they technically have a negative amount of time. That's it. When police arrived on the scene, they encountered what appeared to be a man with a gun.  Not a boy with toy.  Andy Lopez appears to have had facial hair in some pictures.  And plenty of 13 year olds don't look like children (my 13 year old son is about 5'9", 160 pounds...  He played football with a bunch of kids that were roughly his size.  They may be youth, but they aren't children).  The gun was a realistic looking replica that had the orange tip cut off.  At a distance outside of 3 yards, it looked plenty real. So officers arrived to find a man with a gun.  Actually, a rifle with an effective range of 300 yards.  Those officers were equipped with 9mm handguns with an effective range of maybe 30 yards.  An order of magnitude less.  That rifle could also slice through their bulletproof vest or any car component except the engine block out to several times the effective range of those handguns. Again, they found a man with a gun that significantly overmatched them. Hesitation when confronting a man with a rifle, well inside it's effective range will get you dead.  There simply is no time to consider other possible courses of action.  You can't clear out of the 300 yard range of such a weapon quickly enough, or do anything else.  Shoot/no-shoot decisions MUST by there very nature be made instantaneously.  The amount of time that it takes to make the decision to shoot and have the finger pull the trigger is already too long, if the person on the other end has already made the decision to fire.  The only training change is to hesitate.  And when we ask officers to protect us from bad people in our stead, we can't ask them to do that.

Chris Everett

Your question poses a interesting if not difficult dilemma...how much responsibility is placed on the Police, and how much responsibility should be placed on the children and their parents? I'll try to tackle some of your points; Only ten seconds elapsed between the initial radio call about a suspicious person and the shooting, so it seems that practically no time was spent on risk assessment. I agree, ten seconds does not provide enough time to form a complete risk assessment...this is something taught to recruits from day one. Intelligence is key to ensure the safety of everyone concerned. Some questions that could be asked include "Has there been any shots"? "Is the child being aggressive and making threats"? "Is the child known, and if so, is there a pattern of behaviour/ do they have a criminal history?" Not even trying to think things through when preparing to confront someone you think has an AK-47 can’t be very smart or very good practice, can it? Agreed. Semi-automatic and automatic weapons are banned in Australia so if a report of a AK-47 came on the radio, all we could do is try to contain the scene until the Tactical Response Group/ SWAT guys showed up...as 'general duties' Police, we just don't have the training or experience to deal with this kind of fire-power. If I saw a 13-year-old carrying such a rifle in my neighbourhood, I would think it was very likely a toy because I have seen kids with toy guns many times, but never any with real ones. You and I are both lucky to live in neighbourhoods where this type of situation wouldn't occur, but I'm sure you can agree there are areas in the world where kids carry real guns and Police need to react to the threat. Thirteen-year-olds have poor judgement. Their poor judgement causes them to want to do foolish, risky things. I agree to a point. At thirteen though, I knew carrying a toy gun around in public is just stupid and most of my friends knew this too. At the end of the day, no reasonable person could be expected to know the difference between a toy gun and a real gun... Sure, on close inspection you could tell some are plastic or don't have all the working components of a real gun, but from a distance, would you be prepared to take the risk? Children are the ones that need the education - parents need to ensure this happens and ensure toys guns stay at home.

Carl Logan

The only realistic answer to the question, as posed, is to train officers to wait.  Wait to decide if the rifle is real, wait to figure out who the person carrying the rifle is, wait to determine if the person is really a threat, wait for the magical SWAT team to arrive while hoping no innocent person gets hurt. I am assuming you actually read the multiple answers and views on the earlier question when this tragedy occurred, but it is apparent that you don't accept the information provided by the answers.  The deputies faced the distinct possibility that the rifle was real.  Nothing the deputy had with him will stop a rifle round (including the majority of cars).  Thirteen-year-olds can and do kill.  Some 13-year-olds look significantly older.  Rifle rounds are still lethal from a block or two away.    I absolutely, 100-percent-without-a-doubt wish there was some way that officers could know *for* *sure* what a person is thinking when the officer encounters him.  There would be so many options available then. But waiting is not a viable option, especially for the deputy who is expected to react to what's happening in front of him.  Waiting means giving the person with the (real) rifle an opportunity to shoot you.  Waiting means that the other person has control of the situation and gets to decide when to begin an attack.  Waiting means giving the person a chance to kill innocent people.  Imagine the public backlash from that scenario:  "The cops were right there and then backed off!  Why didn't they do something when they had the chance?!?!?" I'm being perfectly honest here -- in 21 years as a police officer, I've never had to face a person with a rifle.  I've been in situations where I *could* have shot someone, but chose not to for tactical reasons (concern about others in the area, not a great backdrop available, etc).  I know I got lucky in those situations -- everyone got to walk away.  But I cannot and will not second-guess what another officer (or citizen) is feeling and thinking when s/he makes the decision to pull that trigger.  The deputy who shot Lopez said he was afraid that Lopez was about to shoot him with what he believed was a real rifle.  Who are we to say that he didn't have the right to that fear? We are blessed with 20-20 hindsight in this matter. Yes, now we know the gun wasn't real.  Now we know that Lopez might not have heard what the officers were shouting, or might have been confused about why they were yelling at him.  But we were not there, we were not privy to the incident.  It was entirely possible (and there are plenty of examples available) that the rifle was real. And yes, 13-years-olds make bad decisions including carrying guns and intending to hurt someone. So, unless there's some sort of telepathy training available, or unless you intend to train officers to be willing targets for someone with a rifle, there aren't a lot of options here...

Christopher Hawk

Take into account what Tim Dees and Christopher Hawk have posted. Then add in that parents need to be involved in their children's lives. If parents allow their children to have toy guns then they need to insure that the guns have the required orange tips on the barrels. I don't know how long this teenager possessed this gun but I wish someone would have taken if from him before this happened. We have all  read the news and watched the reports of 12 year olds shooting up schools. The imitation gun is the issue here. Not the age of the person who holds it.

Bob Cooke

A "little" illegal?  As I pointed out in my answer on the previous question, Lopez was breaking at least three different state and federal laws AND demonstrating a massive amount of poor judgment.  Maybe he shouldn't have been expected to be that responsible because of his age, but if that is the case he should not have been allowed to have that toy. The laws he broke that you say made him a "little" illegal are in place to prevent exactly this event.  I don't see them as "little" laws.  And you are also forgetting that this wasn't Wisteria Lane, Mayberry RFD. He was a brown teen, in a lower income area, plagued with Mexican street gang activity, in the height of marijuana harvest and processing season, in a city who's primary illegal enterprise is marijuana, carrying a replica rifle, looking exactly like the type of kids these operations employ to protect processing "plants". On top of all of that, he did not follow the directions of the officer. You can be upset about this unfortunate event all you want, but misplacing the blame will do nothing but increase the already rampant distrust of authority in that area. This is not a police training problem, this is a society problem. Accept it.

Andrew Gutsch

The "officer safety" mantra has done a lot of harm to policing. This has driven what I will call "object based response": if someone appears to be holding what could be a weapon the police have been given a lot of latitude to use deadly force, in order to "keep the officer and public safe." It seems to follow this sort of pattern: A potentially dangerous subject needs to be contacted for the safety of the public. In order to accomplish #1 a lone officer makes contact with the subject. The subject is has an object that appears to be a weapon, so the officer engages (for officer/public safety, as per policy.) The object/weapon is certainly a cause for concern, but it is not a green light for shooting. It is the subjects behavior that truly indicates if the subject is actually a threat or not rather than the object. As points out waiting can have negative outcomes too, but 'snap judgement' gun fights should be largely preventable by better use of tactics. A kid with a gun is much more likely to be a kid with a toy. A kid might very well shoot at police officers but again this a low probability event. Verbally engaging from cover at distance and gathering more information would likely have prevented this outcome. If you are initiating a gunfight when your partner is still behind the wheel of the car you are clearly doing something wrong. It certainly would have made more sense to verbally challenge/command the subject with both officers involved. I understand that it is monday morning quarterbacking, but I don't find the "subject turned and pointed the gun" portion of the story compelling: people will always justify their actions.

John Fogh

A few points: It was a replica gun, not a "toy" – put it side by side with a real and try to tell which is which at 10 feet. He had a "toy" pistol in his waistband. He apparently had a history with the police department. is at the southern top of the Emerald Triangle: illegal Cartel marijuana "grows" have moved on to public lands in southern in the last few years, staffed by "undocumented aliens" who regularly carry such weapons. The realistic solution, at least until we have non-lethal deterrents, is fairly simple, if very traumatic: educate children about what happens when people get shot. Graphically and in great detail, just like drivers education films in the 1960s. I seem to recall the title Code 54 and extremely graphic images of automotive fatalities. That's not as effective as giving each and every child a sense of self-worth, buts it's a fuckton easier. And cheaper than providing genuine education, but that costs money.

Erik Halberstadt

I'm not a law enforcement professional, so I'm going to hedge my answer here. Many countries, (including the UK) ban the sales and ownership of replica firearms for this very reason. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/

Peter Kerrigan

I can't help but think this tragedy could have been avoided if the officer on the scene had shouted "Drop the weapon!" and waited for the kid to react. Instead it sounds like he just opened fire.

Chris Bast

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