What are R4's and how do they work?

What energy is at work in magnetism and how is it dissipating?

  • I have found the answers to both educational and entertaining, but, let me try to simplify my question. What follows is all speculation and opinion. I am collaborating with an electrical technician, but, I am a layman. If you hold two powerful magnets you will expend energy trying to hold them apart and you will tire before the magnets give out and once you give up trying to hold them in place they will pull together or push apart. What form of energy is being used to do that work? It is not electrical energy, because there is no electron flow, you don't get shocked there are no tingles, there are no plugs attached to them. It is no getting hot or cold, so, it's not heat or cold energy. How is the energy dissipating?   It is related to electricity, but it is not electrical. You can describe an electromagnet, but if you have no electricity and you expend energy to hold them in place then they are expending energy to pull together or push apart, but, there's no heat, no loss of energy and no way to measure it. You could put springs on it and measure it into pounds, so, its affects may be measurable but magnetism is not measurable and it has none of the characteristics of any known form of energy that I am aware of.   You can align the poles with electricity once the electricity is gone there is a magnetic field caused by the alignment of the particles or molecules in the magnetic material. The power or energy in the atoms that make up the particles is unproportional in strength to the strength of the magnetic field that it generates. Why? If they were proportional, then when the two magnets come together there would be a big arc and you might get electrocuted trying to hold them, I would think.   You can stop the magnetic field when the poles are gone, but, the field can be turned back on. Maybe after a great length of time the field can be shifted and weakened or turned off, but, if the poles are physical something has to act on them to do that, even then magnets can be acted on and the magnetic field activated again. It has a force that pulls them together or repels them and "force" may not be the correct term here, since, with zero movement a force formula no longer applies as force requires movement I would think. The only movement would be trying to hold them apart or the pulling together or pushing apart, but, once they are together there is no movement or so little movement that there is not very much force. Maybe, it is similar to a molecular bonding of two pieces of metal when two magnets hold together, but, they are still doing work to overcome the pressure and centrifugal forces of gravity in order to hold the weight of another magnet.   You could say it is static energy, but, static energy does no work while magnetic energy does do work. You could say it is not energy but it will do work. It will hold a magnet in place and off of the ground against the forces of gravity. It has all the characteristics of energy and does work, but, that is as far as it goes after that the similarities to the forms of energy that I am aware of ends. Again, we can measure its affects, but not the magnetism itself. We physically measure all the other energy: electricity, light, heat, cold, but we can't measure magnetism. Once you align the poles, magnetism is just there and it's only attraction seems to be to itself. You could say it attracts to metal, but, it aligns the poles in the metal and extends its magnetic field and it does this without generating heat in the steel. It causes electron flow in wire but you have to expend energy moving wires through it's field and that's it's basic relationship to electrical, however, it is not electrical energy. It disrupts radio signals in large amounts, disrupts cell phones, electrical signals, etc.. there is a lot we know about it, but, what is it. It may be generated by electrons but they aren't producing that much power and there is no heat and if not acted upon it can go for a really long time.   It is generated by electron flow by aligning the poles of the particles or molecules in the magnetic material which is a good is definition of how it is created. How it is generated and used is obvious. We can create it, but what have we created? What are we channeling? What form of energy is being used? We know what causes the magnetic field, but, no one seems to know what it is and we were looking for educated ideas. The stable state using no energy is understandable, but what about when a magnet is picking up another magnet? If you take and restrain that magnet from ever reaching the other magnet it will pull on that magnet forever or until weakened. Any other form of energy there would be a heat loss from the work, so, it seems to be different in the way it does work from all other known energies.   What I see is this: A small amount of energy from the atoms in a piece of magnetic material that are polarized can form a very strong magnetic field. We have no way of harnessing this magnetic field. If you try to turn it off and on so that you can use it to do work, then you lose the magnetic field. The only thing this field will do is interact with another magnetic field and just one time it will create motion as it attracts or repels the other magnetic field. After that it you cannot reverse the attraction or repulsion without either turning it off or weakening the field. If turned off you lose it and we have no way of weakening it with a small amount of energy. What energy is at work and how is it dissipated? Perhaps, it is true that know one knows, but, speculation is very welcome.

  • Answer:

    I am by no means highly qualified to answer this question, but magnetic objects are magnetic because their electrons are aligned.  In a normal substance, the electrons are vibrating and spinning and pointing in no specific direction, so although each electron has a magnetic field, the sum is zero.  A magnetic substance has the average electron oriented in a specific direction, resulting in a net magnetic field which produces the macroscopic effects that we call magnetism.  Every time that magnet is used to induce magnetic effects in another substance, it takes a little bit of work.  In the magnet, this work done releases a number of electrons from their fixed orientation, reducing the net magnetic field strength and increasing the entropy (work for entropy).  If you take a magnet and rub it against another magnet pointing in the opposite direction both magnets will weaken over time as the electrons are freed from their low entropy state and cease contributing to the net magnetic field.  So in short: The magnetic substance was formed in a magnetic field generated by random movement of electrons (typically in a planet's core), which results in its electrons having a general orientation with the magnetic field.  Once the substance is removed from the magnetic field, its electrons are already in their fixed orientation, but are now in a very entropically unfavorable situation since they are all pointing in one direction without the outside magnetic field keeping them there.  When a magnet does work, we are releasing some of the work done by the original formative magnetic field in reducing their entropy, increasing their entropy in exchange for doing work

Andrew Lehman at Quora Visit the source

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I will attempt to tackle your questions one paragraph at a time, since you asked many good questions in your post. NOTE: I have found that after reading though your post and attempting to answer your questions thoroughly, you frequently talk about electromagnets and permanent magnets interchangeably. They are not the same thing, and they do not achieve magnetism through the same mechanism. It is important to separate these mechanisms in your mind, so that you may understand these concepts. First lets start by saying that while magnetism in permanent magnets depends on a number of criteria. For a quite simple explanation of magnets, see this video by minutephysics. Now on to your questions. 1. There is no energy dissapated in the process of holding two magnets in place in proximity to eachother as long as they are not moving relative to eachother. This may be non-intuitive to most people, but usually the misunderstanding comes down to the formal definitions of Energy, Force and Work vs. the everyday definition. When you are holding two magnets apart from eachother, you are applying a Force to the magnets. A Force is relatively self-explanatory. It is what happens when you push a couch, when you hold up your phone, and when you hold magnets apart. Those are physical forces. Note: The object does not need to move for a force to be applied. Also, if a Force is applied and the object does not move, there is (at least) another force being applied to counteract the force applied. When you stand, you apply a force on the earth, and the earth applies the opposite force on your feet. When you apply force on the magnets, the magnets apply force onto your body. (this is a magnetic force) Note on forces and work: Applying a force alone does NOT mean that work is being performed. The formal definition of work requires a Force to displace an object a distance. The mathematical equation for the magnitude of the force is: Work=Force*distance displaced (There is also a cosine factor involved, but for our purposes it does not apply as we are displacing in the same direction as the force being applied.) By holding two magnets in the same place we are applying a Force but not doing any Work, or dissipating any Energy. We could do work on the system by adjusting the force applied to the magnets to move them closer together or further apart. In this process, since we have displacement, we would be performing work(or the magnets would be performing work on us). In this case we would only have 2 forms of Energy. We have Kinetic Energy, the Energy of motion. We also have Magnetic Potential Energy. When you are holding the magnets apart from each other, we have M.P.E. only. This is a product of the magnetic moment of the object and the magnetic field surrounding it. The potential states just what kind of energy it is. It is Energy that is stored and waiting. It could be released, but it is not currently doing anything. If you let the magnets go, you will release some of the M.P.E. and turn it into Kinetic Energy. When you stop and reverse the process, you reverse the energy transfer. A note on heat energy: Heat can be generated a few different ways and none of them apply significantly to this situation. Chemical processes-Oxidation(Fire, Rust), Reduction. Not happening. Nuclear processes- Fission, Fusion. Not here. Electrical processes- Resistance(Batteries are a chemical process) Nope. Mechanical processes-Friction: Skin, and Internal. Yes! Sort of. Skin friction will cause some heating as the air passes around the magnet, and will generate a small(read:negligible) amount of heat. Also, if the magnets are allowed to slam into each other(assuming they don't crack), they will compress each other and create heat from compression. This is also negligible compared to the magnitude of the M.P.E. and K.E. That is why you don't feel heat escaping from the system. 2. Already answered. See 1. 3. You are confusing magnetic force and electric potential(Voltage). They are not the same thing. If two objects had a significantly different electron density, when they come into contact, the electrons will tend to distribute themselves among the objects. Once they equalize, the transfer of electrons stops. This is why a doorknob can give you a zap, but not electrocute you. Electrocution comes from completing an electrical circuit using a part of your body as a path for electrons to pass through. Although the magnets may carry a different electron density, they are not sources of electricity. They are just ordinary objects that happen to have their atoms aligned in a certain way. 4. I don't understand some of the wording here, but I will do my best. The magnetic field can not be "stopped" in any conventional sense. Magnetic fields from the smallest magnetic objects permeate the whole universe. They become very weak over long distances, but they never disappear entirely. If we are talking about permanent magnets, their magnetism can be neutralized by heating, or by applying current(or magnetic fields, i suppose) in random directions and magnitudes until all the particles are "scrambled" The domains of the magnet would cancel eachother out, and the object would become magnetically inert. See the video above for more information. Forces do not require movement to be applied. You are confused with work. See the note on forces and work above. There is no pressure or centrifugal forces associated with gravity. Gravity is a fundamental force of the universe. It attracts everything with mass or energy. The attraction of gravity is a Force just like Magnetic force or Electrostatic force. Please clarify your question here, if you would like a more detailed explanation. 5.The term "Static Energy" is not a commonly accepted type of Energy. If you mean static electricity, refer to 3. If you mean Potential Energy, or Magnetic Potential Energy, refer to the paragraph above the note on heat energy. There is a terminology issue here. Energy is a sum of components. Classical mechanics distinguishes between Potential and Kinetic Energy, though there are others and many categories within those two. Most things are measured indirectly. We measure heat using the temperature of an object. Heat is the amount of excitation inside a substance. It is not the same thing as temperature. We measure gravity using time and distance. More precisely we measure the Gravitational Constant using a system of masses and pendulums with force meters. We measure electricity using magnetic deflection or heat, or any number of other process. We don't count electrons. We measure light using electro-chemical sensors. In fact, magnetism is one of the few phenomena that we can measure directly( or nearly so). If we want to measure a magnetic field, we can shoot a charged particle through the field we want to measure. The Lorentz Equation tells us that a charged particle will curve through a magnetic field. We need to detect the particles location at the end of its journey, and we can tell how much it was deflected. Assuming we knew the speed and charge of the particle(usually an atom or a electron), we can calculate the exact magnitude and orientation of the magnetic field. This is a well proven method for measuring a magnetic field and it is quite simple to show experimentally. If you want a more rigorous explanation of the Lorentz force, this video should do it. Rather than saying the magnetic field attracts itself, it would be better to say that Magnetic Fields only interact with electrically charged objects and magnetically susceptible objects. This stands in line with the fact that Electric Fields only interact with electrically charged objects, and that Gravitational Fields only interact with objects with mass and/or energy. 6. See the paragraph above. Magnets do not always force the objects they attact to align poles. In order to align, they must apply a large enough magnetic field to force an alignment. Even then, when the field is removed, the object may "relax" into its previous state. Magnetic fields do not generate any electrical current. A CHANGE in magnetic field generates an electric current, only as long as the field keeps changing! See this awesome video for a simple and awesome demonstration. Watch your speaker volume. To be more specific, magnetism isn't generated by the electrons themselves, but by the electron structures(in permanent magnets). 7. I am afraid you are misinformed on the subject. If you are talking about electromagnets now(which i assume you are doing), we know exactly the mechanism by which current can generate magnetic fields. We use these properties to design inductors and transformers. The field is generated because of relativity. Another video? YAY!!!! 8. Remember: Energy is not "used" it is converted. If a permanent magnet is attached to something and being held in place, there is no Work being done as the Magnetic Force and Gravitaional Force are in equilibrium and there is no displacement. Heat will not be generated because there is no friction or chemical change occuring. 9. We harness electromagnetic potential all the time. Inductors use the magnetic field to store current. Ever seen one of these? Once again, the line is blurring between electromagnets and permanent magnets. You can adjust the Magnetic field of an electromagnet by adjusting the current flowing through the coil. For 2 permanent magnets, you can reverse the force by flipping one of the magnets. If that was not your question please consider rephrasing it so I can understand better. 10. The question I think you were asking would be "What forces are at work?" and they are not "dissipated". I think if you better understand the difference between Force, Work, and Energy, you will have a better understanding of the relationships that govern Electromagnetics. P.S. I do not mean to sound condescending, This is actually a complicated and unintuitive area of study. I am trying to be as helpful as possible, It took me several hours to write all this up, and If you have any other questions or need clarifications, please let me know, and I would be happy to explain, or refer you to someone who can explain.

Jacob Medinilla

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