Why does everyone think testing fees are a bad thing?

Any school that says they do not have testing fees is lying to you. Most of them either include it in their tuition charges or they still charge you for the belt. Another thing is that a school does not have to charge testing fees unless they are actually registering the rank with an accredited association so the student is truly getting a certification instead of just some crappy piece of paper that has no bearing outside of their training hall. This being said I agree that exam fees should not be outrageous but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a school making a profit from what they offer...especially since the students want the school to be around for a long time right? BUT I do not agree with the instructor driving in a BMW and stuff because that means they are ripping someone off...like the ATA does.

I would never say that testing fees are a bad sign. HOWEVER, there are many schools that milk excessive amounts of money from students for testing. The ATA for instance has charged $500 for a first degree black belt test. That is robbery, plain and simple. As far as the comment about the belt, boards, ...etc. I charge $75.00 for a Shodan (1st dan test). That includes the test, belt, and rank certification certificate. Even at $75.00, some would say that my fees are high. I know legitimate instructors that charge only $25.00 for a black belt test. I see no problem with making a little money. BUT, when testing expands to be more often, more belts, or stripes, and high prices ....??? That is a sign that the school's interest is in profit, rather than quality. less than 3% of all martial arts students (in the late 1960's) in the U.S.A. ever reached black belt. Something is very wrong with the high numbers of black belts most McDojo are turning out. Any school that has more than a few black belts is suspect of being of low quality. The only exception being a school that has been in operation for 20 or more years and has an overall student base of several hundred... EDIT: As far as the comments about a panel of judges coming in and being paid. I feel that many groups simply scratch each others backs. some organizations make a board required so that they can go and get paid for it. Any third dan that is a Sensei or equal should be able to do any testing through 1st dan. The general rule is that someone testing can test students up to two ranks below their own. Unless someone is testing for an instructors (3rd dan), or higher, I see no need for a testing board. In my organization, I do almost all of the testing. If my senior student is available, I ask him to be there. He also can test students up to 5th dan himself. We don't unnecessary fees. The whole idea of a color belt, or even a first dan test candidate having to pay high fees for some muckity, muck to come there is ridiculous. First dan black belt is not a high rank. It is in every way one the beginning of a persons training. Edit: Like jwbulldogs, we also dyed our belts in the 1960's. Then when promoted to the next rank, we would bleach the color out of the belt, then dye the new color. all the students did their own belts. It resulted in some very different results. Some had really light color, while others were a different shade, or darker. Those were the good old days. Promotions were not often. I remained a Brown belt for about 4 years before reaching Shodan. ....

1) Because of our cultural conditioning to think that money is the "root of all evil", when it isn't. The actual Bible verse states that the LOVE of money, not the money, is the root of evil: http://bible.cc/1_timothy/6-10.htm 2) Because sometimes testing fees can be EXTREMELY expensive. If someone is charging just to recoup money spent, to cover the cost of supplies, etc., that's one thing. But I have heard of hundreds of dollars being charged for a 1st degree black belt. I do not charge testing fees. I do ask for students to buy their own equipment and uniforms, and provide the directions to stores and links to websites where they can do so. And if needed, I pay for wood. But then again, I teach out of a rec center and I do not have to worry about rent or utilities either. If I had overhead expenses, perhaps I'd sing a different tune. Give this question some time on this board and you will read some truly nightmarish stories.

I'm just curious, why wouldn't the testing fee be included in the overall membership fee? It's not a huge deal if you're only trying to cover the cost of the belt and wood, but many places use this as a means to tacking on further profits (i.e. having an excessive amount of belts).

because you're the one perspiring and getting tired during testing, the instructor should be the one paying you...

I think that the view that testing fees are bad is based on the following points: 1. Higher fees (or growing fees as one poster said) 2. No explanation If the fees are quite high, higher than any reasonable cause, then a person should be careful. Or if fees go up as you go up, for basically the same thing. Why is a green belt more expensive than a yellow belt? The belt is the same, the certificate is the same, the testing hall is the same, etc. When the costs are not clearly explained. The testing fees typically cover belt, certificate, hall rental and instructor costs. Again, why are some places so expensive? Why is it more for a blue belt? Why do people pay 500 or 1000 dollars for a black belt? If the pricing is (edit) NOT (edit) clearly explained - and reasonable - it is a dangerous sign. Good luck with your school.

First off, I want to respond to your question. Your situation isn't your typical dojo, since it sounds like you don't charge monthly fees, but in general, here are my thoughts. As a martial artist, I would rather have my testing fees built into my monthly fees than have to pay a "testing fee". In my training, we are required to buy our own equipment, belts included. In jiu jitsu, we use a stripe system on our belts, so when a fighter reaches his 2nd or 3rd stripe, we usually buy our next belt, then keep it at the gym until we test. Any registration/certification fees are also to be covered by the fighter, not by the gym. In my opinion, I do not like testing fees... 1) It's like a cell phone bill. You agree to pay $XXX per month, but then there's a hidden charge for testing. "That's where they get you!" I'd rather have a HIGHER monthly bill with NO ADDITIONAL FEES, that's the same every month, than have any additional charges. Testing costs the gym money, but that should be built into the cost of the gym. 2) Promotion should not depend on financial status. Your wallet and your karate ability should not be linked. If a fighter is deserves a promotion, then he should be tested, based on his ability, not based on his ability to PAY. If a fighter can't afford testing fees, then would you refuse to test him, even though he's clearly earned it? 3) Testing fees promote the idea that you can buy your belt instead of earn it. Your situation sounds a little different than the average dojo. If you're teaching essentially FOR FREE, then it is right for you to charge your students for materials, for testing or training both. However, I would describe to your students, what each test consists of, and explain the costs, i.e. $25 for a new belt, $20 for breaking wood, $5 certificate fee, $45 registration fee (optional), etc etc). In your situation, I don't think anyone can accuse you of being a mcdojo. Sounds like you're basically volunteering your time, when in all fairness, you could be charging a monthly or hourly fee. In the future, I would recommend enlisting your students to pursue fundraising efforts to help cover their testing costs, i.e. bake sales, car washes, raffles, corporate sponsorships, donations, etc etc. Be creative, look for ways to bring in money without putting the pinch on your fighters. I'm guessing you're a pretty small operation, so it won't take much of a budget to help cover the costs.

The problem isn't necessary with testing fees. It is more to do with excessive testing fees. Cost of dojo, building rental should have been included in your membership fees. Personally if your dojo is a business I have no problem with you making a profit in your business. However there should be a limit as to how much of a profit. Many will test and test often to make this profit. While that may be a good business plan it is unfair to the students. Theses student feel as though they are making progress, but in reality they are just lining the pockets, purses of their instructors. The cost of a belt and certificate is minimum for all dojo. But there are dojo that charge in excess of $1200.00 for testing fees. They start at one price for your beginning tests. But the closer you get to black belt the fees go up to extreme levels. It is kind of like bait and switch. They lure gullible people in and the slowly demand more and more financial commitments. That is how con men run scams. Example: white belt 1 stripe to 3 stripe $20.00 yellow belt 1 to 3 stripe $35.00 Orange belt 1 to 3 stripe $ 50.00 recommended belt? $1200.00 Black belt Shodan $1500.00 Nidan $2500.00 How much more does it cos the dojo or dojang to test for yellow than it does to test for black? What is a recommended belt? Either you qualify for testing or you don't. The test cost more because the dojo owners know people will pay it because they want the black belt. Therefore they abuse their position of power to make a profit. Unfortunately it is not an illegal practice. It may be or at least in my opinion it is immoral. I even personally question what does wood or breaking have to do with testing? We all know break a board is not difficult. Any untrained person can do it. My wife that does train in martial arts and has no desire to train can break a board. My son started breaking boards at 5 years old. In most cases it is not a barometer of superior skill or technique for most schools. Energy: you may have contradicted yourself. You lose money on testing fees when you consider cost of belt,certificate, and gym rental, etc. But you train in a church fellowship hall. You don't have gym or building facility fees. In other words you have very little overhead. The only thing you have to consider in test cost is the belt and certificate and your time. We don't know your fees but you should be losing money on testing if you charge anything. Back in the day a white belt came with my gi. After earning a promotion we dyed our belt to yellow, orange, green, etc. The only cost with testing was the certificate and rank patch that we never wore. I still have most of those patches, but never placed them on the uniform. I would call your place a mcdojo. I don't know enough about ti to make that statement. Having testing fees does not qualify it as a mcdojo. Having excessive testing fees is a bad sign and the buyer should be cautious. It would be a good idea to find out those things before committing to training in that particular place.

I agree with testing fee's because the do help to off set the cost of the testing I think that what alot of people have a problem with is when people add more belts and raise the testing fee's to exorbitant amounts. As I myself charge testing fees and my Taekwondo instructor do as well like I said I don't think it is wrong in itself I jus think alot of instructors have taken advantage of the testing system to make more money.