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What's more important: GPA or reputation?

How much do college admissions look at your high school's reputation? Do students at elite schools (even with lower GPA) have an advantage over students at other schools (who may have a higher GPA/class rank)?

  • I go to TJHSST, an elite science/tech magnet school in Alexandria, Virginia. I really enjoy it and there are lots of really smart people, but I worry that I'm at a disadvantage for admission to the top colleges because I'm probably only in the top 25% of my class (rather than the top 5% at many other schools), and my GPA is lower than it might be at another school (4.35 rather than 4.5). Is that a legitimate concern?

  • Answer:

    TJ ranks as one of the top (if not the top) schools in the US. The number of National Merit Semis from this school often outnumbers those of some States overall. The students have to compete to get in and Fairfax/Nova has among the best public education systems in the US; therefore, they draw in students whose previous performance indicates they will do well in the school and beyond. That’s what magnet schools were designed to do and they have accomplished their mission. (Why are there not more magnet schools like this opening up around the US—a good question for Quora and the educational community as a whole.)I have visited the school many times and lectured there, so I speak literally from experience rather than just from some data points. Walking into TJ and being in the halls when classes change is far different than going into most schools. It can’t quite be classified in simple ways, but there is an energy that exists in and out of classes (I’ve sat in on a good number) and in the school as a whole that I have rarely encountered (at least in the US; I've felt this same thing at a significant number of the ‘best’ schools around the world).You are lucky indeed to be going there, as it will prepare you for success at virtually any college or university in the world. Feeling good? I hope so, because here comes the sad part.Not all that long ago the Harvard Crimson ran an article on ‘feeder’ schools, those few schools that send quite few students to Harvard year in and year out. The schools are well known and are great. Yet, TJ is not among them. Why would this be? It isn’t as though TJ is not known there, but the nature of selective admission to top schools is such that where you go to school and how you do does not always follow a pattern most would expect.Universities and colleges (and the smaller the school like the most elite small liberal arts schools of the world) the more likely they are, in a de facto way, to restrict the numbers coming in from any given school. These days, the most elite colleges and universities want to have a student body from all over the US and the world. Part of this stems from trying to get past the past-- the composition of the educational landscape several generations ago. Back in the 50’s and 60's the students who entered places like Harvard or Williams, for example, consisted far more dramatically than today, of a large group from boarding schools and private schools, mostly located in the northeast (and a few other places). The elite schools catered to men (most of the top schools were single sex back then) who were from schools that were known as great. This was before colleges and universities began to travel, all fall, first regionally, then nationally and now internationally in search of students. There were no marketing budgets and for the most part the admission committees were made up of faculty. They took what they saw as sure bets and so those secondary schools with great reputations tended to receive large numbers of admission offers. It was clubby and chummy. Back then there were no US News rankings and there was not competition to get to the top of “best" lists the way there is now. But all that has changed. And there are some great reasons for making this change but there are also consequences that affect schools like TJ that some would argue are not meritocratic.When women finally permitted to enroll in the best schools it doubled the applicant pool and made admission much more selective. Not long after that, rankings came into play. All of a sudden things got way harder for students even from the best schools. More important, however, schools wanted to play down the press (and, in part, the reality) that they were bastions of privilege. They wanted to offer spaces to students from all walks of life that were great students. Diversity became the mantra and to some degree this word and the ideology behind it still ranks as one of the top goals of the most selective schools. Diversity means lots of things but all of these are important at some level now: socioeconomic, first generation, under-represented populations, and geographic diversity are all of interest to schools and the media. As a result, schools have gone to great lengths to demonstrate they are diverse in all these ways.This may seem off point but let me try to show why going to TJ is not in and of itself good or bad, but a little of both. Given the focus on diversity in all its forms, the most selective schools with huge applicant pools do not often want to enroll a large group of students from a single school or even, in some cases, from a single region. This effort to spread the offers means that going to TJ will not help you get in to the top schools in the US even though virtually every school in the US knows it ranks near the top of high schools anywhere. Does this make rational sense? It does from their point of view if you remember that they are looking for students from many places and backgrounds. But for those who argue for a flat meritocratic system (something that has never existed in the world and never will), then they will be disappointed with this approach. In addition, TJ has a very high percentage of Asian students and as everyone knows (but schools can’t say,) there are just too may great Asians students applying to the most selective schools.In your particular case, your standing at TJ now will get you into many of the top schools in the US, but it’s very unlikely you could crack the top of the top unless you are an Intel winner or a special (under-represented group, first generation, athlete etc.). If the top schools won’t offer to more than a handful of TJ students it should come as no surprise that they will take the 4.5 students first. But going to a different Fairfax school might not have helped either. If you were at the top of the top at Langley or Marshall or Woodson you’d still be competing in a region where some places are only going to take but so many students. And there is no guarantee (although many students assume it to be so) that a student at TJ with lower GPA would be at the very top of another school. It well could be true, but then the top schools turn down the valedictorians of many schools around the world.If you are now feeling depressed, let me see if I can pitch something that should make you feel, if not elated, at least a bit better. Is TJ a feeder school to some of the best schools in the US? Absolutely. What are these schools? I will list 3. William and Mary, Virginia Tech and the University of Virginia.These are 3 of the top public schools in the US; in addition, they are among of the top schools overall. Hundreds of TJ students are accepted to these schools and many choose to attend. I can say from personal experience (I was in charge of overseeing the selection of honors students into one of these schools) that these students do exceptionally well on campus. Each year, I ran a report that listed the average GPA, by high school, of all enrolled students. With the exception of some international schools, TJ students’ performance was the best of any school that enrolled 10 or more students in a four-year cycle (what I considered a large enough number for caparison data). This outcome should come as no surprise. TJ deserves its great reputation and the data proves that the students do better, at least in terms of GPA, than almost anywhere else. My guess is that if this data were run by other schools (and I hope that this is being done) that the performance of TJ students across all the schools they attend would be exceptionally high relative to almost all other schools too. From this point of view, TJ has prepared you for success.But given what I have written does not mean that even this data will help increase the numbers of TJ students getting into the most selective schools. It could help but my guess is that schools would not release this data. If schools starting showing, publicly at least, how students from specific secondary schools did on their campuses, there would be surprises, outcry, and lots else. It’s this kind of deep data that should be gathered but there are many reasons that it won’t or if it is it won’t see the light of day in public (to explain why would involve a book-length digression).But for you life should be good as you do have great options ahead. But life is never that simple. This time, the problem is not with what schools decide about TJ aps; rather, it’s the culture that goes on within the walls of TJ itself. I have talked to many, many TJ students over the years and for some, especially those with top gpas, schools like the great public universities within the Commonwealth of Virginia, are perceived by them as back ups at best. The expectation of these students is that not only should they get in to the State schools, but that the ‘deserve’ to be a part of the honors programs. And in many cases I think they are correct. But because so many TJ kids go to the great State schools some students there look down upon the school. They forget they live in a very elite bubble and while there may a number of classmates on campus this does not mean the school itself is not near the top. Those schools have what I would call the wisdom to accept lots of these great students rather than using other non-academic rubrics too liberally.Instead of viewing these State colleges and universities as less than great opportunities compared to higher ranked schools, I think more top students there should think seriously about turning down higher ranked schools. Of course given my background I can be expected to say this, but again I’d point to the data. First of all, the cost for attending a top state school is half what a private would be. Some students go into a lot of debt to trade up a few places on some rankings that don’t mean much. As important, however, is something I have written about a lot on Quora, my blog and lots of other places too.Students from a magnet school like TJ who go to a college and university (especially as an honors scholar) have the data in hand to demonstrate that it is likely that at the end of 4 years they will graduate near the top of the class. And if a student graduates from a great college or university with a stellar GPA, research, honors major etc. that will help these students get into the best graduate schools. For the high flyers that are TJ students, undergraduate degrees are usually just one part of the academic journey. A TJ student coming out at the top of a great state school will have the chance to get into the top of the top grad schools. I have seen this happen again and again. Gladwell writes about this in “David Goliath”, and he’s is pretty convincing. But I have nearly 30 years of watching great kids from TJ do very well and then go on the top companies and grad schools. Why am I saying this?Because you are a wonderful student who will likely have the chance to go to one of this great state schools and maybe even be a part of the honors programs. Your chances of getting into most Ivies may not be all that high, but so what? Go where you’ll shine and then you will have as many or more options than if you went someplace that might cost much more and give you fewer options later. Best of luck no matter where you go.

Parke Muth at Quora Visit the source

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I defer to , but I'd say most of your fears are just the result of urban legends. First off, the top 25% of your class is a 4.25 GPA?  Know that many high schools don't give more than 4.0, and many schools only have 1 4.0 student per class.  And, to make it fair, many/most colleges will make you compute your GPA based on a 1-4 scale, not giving yourself any bonus points for honors classes or whatever is giving you more than a 4.  In that section of the admissions scorecard, you'll probably get 100%, and no fancy school bonus points, if they exist, will raise you past 100%. Now, I say that as someone from the West.  I've never seen an admissions person factor in a fancy high school or significantly bump up a kid who went to a fancy school.  But in the west, we don't have a strong stratification of high schools (let alone middle schools let alone elementary schools.)  I was Principal of a high ranking private school where occasionally students would "phone their way into" a college, not even having to take the SAT or something like that; but I have a hard time understanding your question because I can't name a single widely-recognized fancy high school.  Exeter?  [I just googled that to confirm, that is a fancy school, but I only know it from references; and having done that, I didn't recognize the names of any of the other "Ten Schools."]  I spent a moment at one of the few boarding schools in the west a few years ago, and they would always joke that in the East they would be as respected as Hogwarts from the average person on the street, but in the west no matter their test scores or their high profile students they were seen as a place for bad parents to abandon their kids (thus rinsing and repeating all societal problems.)  I'm saying all this to say that in my experience Harvard/Duke/Brown will care what school you went to, Stanford/Berkeley/UCLA will not. And as Parke mentioned, schools are looking for wide student backgrounds.  No one will frown on your accomplishments by virtue of your high school education--but if it's all that good your SAT/ACT scores will reflect it, and even if not you'll quickly bloom where you're planted. So, bottom line: your high school booster shot is its own reward--you've developed better study skills, a better work ethic, better social skills, dig all the rich guy hobbies, know how to use your brain better, and you'll spend your life linkedin on facebook to all kinds of powerful alumni, and most people won't.  And all of those are the only reason a good university is a good university.  But independent of all that, realize that there are multiple variables / multiple axes at play here: your rank, your school's rank, your skillset, your connections, and the eye of the admissions beholder, including whether that university has any line on its admissions computer for the rank of your school in the first place. And, as you'll see everyday here on Quora, once you're into college no one will care what high school you went to, and they won't care what your grades were.  Once you're working, few will care what college you went to and no one will care what your grades were.  And once you go to grad school, no one will ever again ask what your undergrad college was, other than as a passing curiosity.  The only thing that matters about your past in the real world is how that is reflected in your current self.  The proof is in the pudding--meaning if the pudding ain't right, it doesn't matter why or what or how, and if it's tasty, it similarly doesn't matter why or what or how.

Colin Jensen

In private schools they definitely care about which school you've been to. In public school they may or may not, depending on the situation.

Jessica Margolin

I taught at the Korean Minjok (National) Leadership Academy from 2002-2007. KMLA is similar to TJ in that its students score higher on AP exams than students at any other school in the world -- including the prestigious boarding schools of the northeast. When KMLA started, its goal was to send the top students in Korea to the top universities in Korea. The first class had 26 students and 26 teachers -- chosen as the best in the country. However the top Korean universities used class rank to determine admissions. As a result, 15 of the 26 transferred to other schools, where they were relatively certain of being first in their graduating class. When I arrive, two-thirds of the admitted students were in the international program -- aiming mainly at top US universities. The classes that graduated after I arrived always placed every graduate (about 60 per year) in one of the top twenty US schools. This was due, I believe, to three factors. First, the students were outstanding -- among the best in Korea -- their SAT scores were 100 points higher, on average, than those at the top US boarding schools, and they typically scored 4 or 5 on six or more AP exams. Second, the college counselor did a good job of educating universities about the quality of the school, using both a publication that described what made KMLA unique, and through in-person meetings with admissions officers and faculty at perhaps a dozen top schools each year. Third, the school did everything possible to make students look good -- giving high grades, prepping students for SAT and AP exams, arranging internships, assisting with the preparation of essays and applications, and much more. Your success at TJ should place you in the top tier of schools. If it does not, the school has not really done its primary job: assuring your success at the next level of education both through preparing you and through assuring your admission at a school suitable to your abilities and goals. And, after reading Mr. Muth's long answer, I can only observe that Princeton admits about 15% of its students from New Jersey and 10% from other countries -- so diversity is more theoretical than real. While Virginia has some good public schools and while they are cheaper than private or out-of-state schools, it is understandable that most TJ students might want to aim higher. The best reason for not aiming higher, in my opinion, is that "higher" generally means students are judged more harshly -- not that they are better educated. It is often better to be a top student at a slightly less prestigious school (at both the high school and college level) than to be a mediocre student at a great school.

F. Dennis Williams

Parke already answered your question very well, but I'll add my two cents. I don't think colleges look at your high school's reputation much, if at all. This would discriminate against students, like myself, who had no option but to go to an unheard of public high school. Also, going to a private school might actually hurt you, since they tend to give out A's. For example, my friend goes to a Catholic school, and she has a 4.3 GPA. If she went to my school, her GPA would be much, much lower.

Alexa Darche

As with all college admissions questions, it depends.I can tell you that TJ is pretty much the only school to consistently get multiple admits to Caltech every year. I can also tell you that being the valedictorian of any school is not enough to get you into Caltech. Admissions committees at selective schools are interested in the 'whole package' these days. College admissions offices do have data on high schools, including all of those in the US, and they do use that data to give context to GPA's and class ranks, as well as other aspects of the application. At Caltech, that meant a note in a TJ applicant's file that the school was a strong magnet, with nearly total college enrollment. It also meant notes in other applicant's files about the availability of AP classes or lack thereof. Since most Caltech applicants come in with several perfect AP scores (or the equivalent), students who had no access to these classes or other outside enrichment could look inferior through no fault of their own. The availability of good data on high schools is also why highly selective schools, such as MIT and Caltech can be very tough on home schooled students. Admissions committees are fairly confident in their ability to contextualize students from vastly different backgrounds and schools because they know the long term trends and tendencies, but they have no way to do this with most home-schooled students.

Kelly Martin

TJ is a feeder school for MIT.  You still need to be very strong, but we definitely take a good number of students from TJ every year.

Anonymous

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