What is the difference between maximal flow and maximum flow?

Fluid Dynamics: What is the difference between chaotic flow and turbulent flow?

  • I have heard that turbulent flows are chaotic but that not all chaotic flows are turbulent. Given some characteristics of a chaotic flow (eg velocity data, etc) how could you tell if it was turbulent or just chaotic? E.g. would you expect k^(-5/3) to be true for a chaotic flow?

  • Answer:

    EDIT: As pointed out, a chaotic flow has to have mixing by definition. The  following answer assumes 'chaotic' to mean 'random' which is technically  incorrect. But I've decided to leave it here anyway, because I  think that's what the OP meant. However, I still think that you won't observe a k^(-5/3) spectrum in the case of chaotic advection. I'm also adding Piyush's comment as a part of this answer. Chaotic  but non-turbulent flows can have exponential mixing. There is a whole  field of chaotic advection based on this fact. In fact, you can have  exponential mixing of mass in Stokes flow, which is as far away from  turbulence as possible. This is often used to mix fluid efficiently at  micro devices (low Re), where turbulence is simply not feasible due to  energy considerations. A  chaotic flow is one in which there seems to be a high irregularity in the behavior of one/all flow variables with time/space. While a turbulent flow certainly exhibits this behavior, there are also other properties that should be present for a flow to be called turbulent, one of which is high levels of mixing, i.e., mass/momentum/heat transfer. This is a distinct (and perhaps the most useful) property of turbulent flows which is frequently exploited. When you try to mix the sugar in a cup of coffee by stirring it, you're essentially making use of this property. This effect can be clearly seen by looking at the velocity profiles of laminar and turbulent flows through a pipe. (Taken from http://www.flowcontrolnetwork.com/articles/flow-profile-theory-practice) The lines show the magnitude of horizontal/streamwise velocities with respect to height along a pipe. You can see that the turbulent flow has a much flatter velocity profile than a laminar flow, i.e., there are higher velocities close to the wall for a turbulent flow compared to a laminar flow, while there are lower velocities close to the centerline for a turbulent flow compared to a laminar flow. This shows that velocity (momentum for an incompressible/constant density flow) is transferred to a greater extent from the fluid elements close to the centerline to the fluid elements close to the walls in case of a turbulent flow. A good example of a flow which is chaotic but is not turbulent is the trail behind an aircraft. Though the flow inside the jet trail is highly chaotic, it is not turbulent because it maintains the shape (diameter) for very large distances behind the aircraft, which means that there is very low/negligible mixing with the surrounding atmosphere. (Taken from http://www.123rf.com/photo_1585204_exhaust-trail-seen-behind-a-aircraft-very-high-in-the-sky.html) There are other properties which a flow should satisfy to be called turbulent. They are Rotationality, presence of Energy Cascades etc. Also, I wouldn't expect to see a K^(-5/3) behavior in the energy spectrum of a chaotic flow, because the energy cascade is an example of a momentum transfer which need not occur in a chaotic flow. More importantly, I have doubts as to whether the concept of an energy spectrum is even meaningful for a purely chaotic flow which is not turbulent.

Lalit Kishore at Quora Visit the source

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There is an intermediate between laminar flow and turbulent flow called transitional flow where chaos theory can be used to describe the onset of turbulence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminar-turbulent_transition

Malcolm Sargeant

All turbulent flows are chaotic in nature.But all chaotic flows are not turbulent. In short Turbulent flow is a Chaotic flow.Chaos is a characteristic of a Non-linear system. In layman terms,smallest instabilities or disturbances in the flow manifests itself(or amplified) to the large  disturbances comparable to global scales.Now turbulent flow is chaotic in nature because the individual realizations of the identical experiments are always different (however their statistical properties like variance etc are not) no matter how accurately you perform these experiments.Smallest inevitable discrepancies in initial conditions always get amplified to give entirely different realizations(See the figure below).This very sensitive dependence upon initial conditions is the characteristic of a highly non-linear system like turbulence. So the turbulent flow is an example of the chaotic non-linear system. Because turbulence often characterized by energy cascade(dissipation),high degree of diffusion,large scale separation,3-dimensionality,vorticial,random fluctuating flow properties etc,many chaotic flows does not reflect these aforementioned characteristics.Many flow are chaotic while not turbulent in nature.For Eg Chaotic advection like (Simple lid driven cavity flow,Taylor-Couette flow,Simple buoyant flow)causes simple, non-turbulent flows to exhibit very complicated particle trajectories to categorize in chaotic flows.This chaotic behaviour is not unique to the fluid dynamics.Chaos can observed in many biological,chemical,mechanical non-linear systems as well .Now take an example of simple logistic equation(Verhulst1845) which models the  growth of biological species such simple algebraic equation,for the value of a>3.57,the solution becomes aperiodic and chaotic.You need not get into the details of this(which is quite abstruse,many terms called bifurcations,periodic doubling etc make things tough to understand) So in nature many chaotic systems does exist and turbulent flow is one such.

Sasank Komarla

To avoid confusion one should note that some mathematicians and physicists, chief among them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Sprott, have coined the term "http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pubs/paper212.pdf" in relation to any set of equations which exhibit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory behavior, i.e., system response displays a sensitive dependence upon initial conditions.   Fluid dynamicists have noted that many cases of fluid mixing exhibit fractal behavior, a hall mark of chaos, and have coined the phrase "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaotic_mixing" to refer to such flows.  Given the similarities seen between real fluid flows transitioning from laminar to turbulent and dynamical systems transitioning between steady-state and strange attractors, it has been natural for modern theories relating turbulence to chaos theory to arise, the most notable that of David Roulle and Floris Takens.  You might find the answer to more detailed in its discussion of the matter.  To the best of my knowledge all cases of what is known as "chaotic mixing" are examples of harmonic, sub-harmonic, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiperiodicity flow regimes that exist in the laminar-turbulent transition regime of flows.  Therefore, they would not exhibit the same statistical behavior as truly statistically stationary turbulent flow.

Stewart Bible

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