When was the largest migration in or out of Iran?

If the Aryan Migration into India theory is a myth then how do we explain Iran's history and mythology?

  • If we look at another religion which is grew parallel to Hinduism in ancient Iran, Zoroastrianism, we observe that the term Aryan takes clear racial connotations. Many Indian and Hindu nationalists (post-independence) claim that the Aryan Invasion theory is a myth. Even Hindu scriptures don't provide much direct proof to a distinct invading race theory, although interpretation is possible. Even the 19th and 20th Century Western Europeans (not just Hitler's Germans but also English and American whites) who took pride in calling themselves Aryans (before 1940-45) never really knew the term before British scholars studying Indian mythology found the term 'Arya' meaning just noble. Today thanks to the racial supremacists of Europe, the whole concept has been plagiarised and blown out of logic. Indian text books now teach this theory as false. But, Iranian history seems to disagree. Even today Iranian and Zoroastrian websites online uphold this theory till date. Example : http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/histar33.html http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/aryan_movement.php So, what is the real truth? Is the Aryan race a myth or a truth? If it is true, could it be that just the people South Asia could be Aryans and not the North Western Europeans? North Western Europe wasn't civilised before the Romans invaded their territory. So, could it be the attempt of colonial Britishers to just elongate their proud history beyond the period of Roman Britannia. The scholars these days seem to alternatively uphold and demolish this theory based on what serves their argument for the day. Do Note : I am expecting erudite answers and not a battle of racial supremacists.

  • Answer:

    Basically the avesta and the Zoroastrianian came later. As of date there is no reason to believe that Zoroastrian predated the Rg Ved. It appears that the Avestam borrowed heavily from the Rg Ved their GOD Asura Mazda is very similar. It will only follow naturally that the Vedic Indians migrated out from India from the Vedic heartlands the land of 7 rivers (5 rivers in Punjab plus Saraswati and Ganges and settled in Iran in prehistoric times. ther carried with them elements of their religion. The Zoroastrian religion is very similar to the theen exixting vedi religion.

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Another way of looking at the Aryan mystery, in addition to the ones provided by and is to examine the Aryan literature which primarily seems to be the Vedas. This was proposed by Bhagawan Gidwani in 'The march of Aryans' and I happen to agree with him. If the Aryans belonged to an ethnicity which is other than India, their literature should point to their homeland. Gidwani argues that the geographical references in the Vedas point towards India, mostly the Indus and Gangetic plain. He claims to have examined oral tradition songs from Greece, Egypt and even South American tribal traditions and says that they have vague references to Sapta Sindhu. Literary examination might be just one way and not a sufficient proof, but I do believe it gives a lot of reliable reference points. Would advise to read his works and go through the sources once.

Saiswaroopa Iyer

Thanks for the A2A. I think there are too many questions in one single set and will address only some of them. The word 'Arya' has always meant 'noble' - this doesn't negate the fact that this root word could have been contextually used to describe one community. (Many communities today call themselves by names that also mean something else). The scriptures and literary sources clearly mention other communities who did not practice Vedic yagyas, spoke different languages and did not fit into the Varna system. So obviously these other communities existed. The Zoroastrian religion was born out of another pre-existing old religion in Iran which is Vedic-Avestan. We don't know which one Indo-Vedic or Avestan-Vedic is older, and there is no way of telling. There is also speculation over the Indus civilization, which again we cannot conclude unless we decipher the script. Although the timeline of Indus Valley and Vedas match up, Indus seems to be culturally closer to proto-Jainism from the emphasis on Bull, Pashupati etc. and the whole matter is once again a mystery. Yes,  you are correct in assessing that both sides of the debate have strong  political agendas and thus its natural that neutrality cannot be  expected. Where Western Indologists have a fascination with the shared  heritage of India and Europe, Right Wing Indians consider the issue a  key-strategy in shaping out our cultural identity. So yes, we have no  takers motivated out of unadultrated quest for the truth, wherever it  may lead.

Abhirup Dutta

First of all indian people does not belong to any single race there was a lot of interracial mix for centuries so it is hard to say which race they really belong to (except tamils who belong to east african race even there language and genetics is similar and has been proven) there are 1000s of different languages being used in india there are 100s of different tribes living in india . but all in all they were all same people who came from the west/ middle east . but the west has has been wrongly interpreting that the civilization itself began from the middle east. because according to the recent archeological evidence the aincient city of dwaraka in gujarath is estimated to be 12000 yrs old 2000yrs older than egyptian civilization but this was dwapara uga according to aincient sanskrit litraturs. then ramas truthias yga shoud be atlest 10,000yrs older than dwapara uga going back to neolithic period . When the ancient saraswathi river dried up 4500yrs ago(harappan civilization is now estimated to be 7000yrs old) many people from harappa migrated to the west and south of india . That is why we see so much similarity in zoaristan , greek and roman language , gods , cultural similarities between aincient greek and romans to hinduism. so we shoud rewrite the chapter of world history that civilization began in the east and got spread over centuries to other parts of the world

Pawan Raj

The truth is that the Indian empire or the Aryavarta was spread accross the sapta sindhu region to the western Gangetic plain comprising modern day's half Iran, Aghanistan and Pakistan.One interesting point to be noted is that 'Asura' who are evil in Hindu mythology;is considered as Lord in Avestan;this prooves that there must have been fight of Gods(b/w Asura & Deva);and after that Indians or Ancient Aryans chose to stay beyond Indus only;thus the civilization which was spread till far accross the Iran must have shifted to the east of Indus;by written accord or treaty among the Devas and the Asuras;thus it can be debated that the anestors of Iranian people and the Vedic people must have fought among themselves and chose to stay beyond the Indus.  Later the Arabs conquered Persia and the Parsis who used to worship the Asuras(e.g. Ahura Mazda);had to migrate to the land of their enemies i.e. Devas.

Amar Bux Singh

Answer: Aryans never invaded the Indian subcontinent or South Asia. Nor did anyone impose the caste system here. So the simple answer to the question is no.The word Aryans is loosely used for a set of people who spoke the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language that spread to different parts of the world, giving rise to the Indo-European family of languages such as Sanskrit and Latin, from which various Indian and European regional languages emerged.These people domesticated the horse, herded cattle, and were familiar with the wheel with spokes and agriculture. There has been a great debate as to where they originated from: Europe, Turkey (Anatolia), India or Eurasia.The racial theory of the 19th century assumed that blonde blue-eyed warriors on horse-drawn chariots smashed their way into India by overpowering the cities of the Indus Valley, enslaving their people. This theory explained the collapse of the Indus Valley cities and the ubiquitous caste system of India. This theory was however part of the European propaganda machinery. The Germans used it as part of nationalist mythology, celebrating their pre-Semitic Nazi heritage. The British used it to delegitimise Hindus, claiming that ‘upper caste’ Hindus were as much invaders and conquerors of India, as Muslims and Europeans, and so they have no moral right to claim India as homeland.Naturally, it got every self-respecting Hindu nationalist riled up. But this theory lacked scientific evidence. Research has shown that the cities of Indus Valley collapsed because of climate change, not invasion, long before the Vedic hymns were compiled or composed.Genetic data has revealed that genetic mixing was common in India 4,000 years ago. Rigid marriage rules based on caste that created unique genetic clusters can be traced only from around 2,000 years ago. Despite being proved wrong, in popular imagination, this propaganda still rings true owing to its simplicity.The Anatolian theory states that the original homeland of Indo-Europeans was the region we now associate with Turkey and that the migration took place 8,000 years ago. This theory has been rejected as the language itself emerged 7,000 years ago and genetic studies show massive migration only around 5,000 years ago. An illustration by Devdutt PattanaikThe Out of India theory emerged in the 1980s. According to this, India is the homeland of the Aryans. The Aryans composed the Vedas and built the Indus Valley cities. They migrated out to Iran, and to Europe thereafter. This argument is based on sound logic, however recent genetic studies clearly tilt the evidence in favour of Aryan migration. Later research may prove otherwise.Current data from linguistic, archaeology, and most importantly, genetic studies favours the Eurasian origin of Aryans. The language developed around 7,000 years ago, around the time the horse was domesticated. Climate change, around 5,000 years ago, forced migration. One group moved westwards towards Europe and the other group moved eastwards, around 5,000 years ago.The westward brand left the only epigraphic record available of gods mentioned in the Vedas - Indra, Mitra and Varuna, in the Mittani inscription, in Mesopotamia, dated to 3,500 years ago. The eastward branch was unique as they both spoke of a narcotic substance homa/soma. This split into two groups about 4,500 years ago. There was an Iranian arm, which eventually venerated the Avesta where ‘devas’ are demons which then gave rise to the Zoroastrian religion. And there was an Indian arm that eventually venerated the Vedas where ‘devas’ are gods, which eventually gave rise to what we now call Hinduism.These Aryans entered the Indian subcontinent around 4,000 years ago, a period when the cities of the Indus-Saraswati valleys had already declined. These cities were first established as early as 8,000 years ago, as per current evidence, but after thriving for nearly 3,000 years, had collapsed following climactic change and poor agricultural patterns. The Aryans brought horses and PIE language with them, but not quite the Vedas.In the Indus Valley and dry river beds of Saraswati, in the decaying brick cities, as they mingled with local people who had memories of the great Saraswati river that once flowed in this region. The Aryans refined old hymns, composed new hymns that eventually were compiled to form the Rig Veda, in a language we now know as Vedic, or pre-Panini, or pre-classical, Sanskrit. This language has nearly 300 words borrowed from the Munda language, considered as a pre-Vedic Indian language, indicating local influence. It is key to note that the hymns speak of no Eurasian homeland, But there is clear awareness of the river Saraswati. One can speculate that the hymns were composed in North West India, generations after the actual migration.About 3,000 years ago, the migration continued eastwards to the lush green Gangetic plains, where Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas were composed. Here eventually, 2,500 years ago, the Upanishadic revolution and the rise of Buddhist and Jain monastic orders refined one idea that makes Indic thought unique - faith in karma, or rebirth.In conversations about Aryans, we need to ask ourselves, why do we give race so much importance? Why is it important to prove that Indus Valley and Vedas are the creations of ‘original Indians’, and has nothing to do with migrants?British colonisers used racial theories such as Aryan invasion theory as part of their ‘divide and rule’ policy. Are we being racist in our discomfort with the Aryan migration theory? In the vociferous rejection of this theory, there seems to be implicit suggestion that all things good in India from Vedas to Indus Valley civilisation to discovery of zero are purely Indian, while all things bad in India from untouchability to misogyny to homosexuality came with foreigners such as Greeks (who were repelled by Hindu kings) or Muslims and Europeans (who used cunning to overthrow Hindu kings). This reeks of the fear of contamination and the desire for purity. Can immigrants and invaders not be Indians?We must be careful about the ‘politics of origin’ according to which a land belongs to people who originated there; this delegitimises all immigrants and nomads.We must be careful also of ‘politics of purity’ that is hostile to all foreigners. Our earliest ancestors emerged from Africa, and populated the whole world, forming various groups, tribes, clans, races, ethnicities, communities and nationalities.Due to natural calamities (climate change, famine) and cultural calamities (war), people have had to migrate again and again in different directions, often returning to spaces their ancestors abandoned thousands of years earlier.So every land is populated by waves of people who have come in at different points of time, from different spaces, each one bringing new ideas and new technologies. There is no such thing as a pure and homogenous society. Every society is hybrid and heterogeneous. This is the reason perhaps why Puranas say that even if we have different fathers, we have a common grandfather, Brahma. And it is ok, if he was African.http://swarajyamag.com/culture/question-are-hindus-essentially-aryans-who-invaded-the-indian-subcontinent-and-imposed-the-caste-systemhttps://twitter.com/tishasaroyan/status/746351889965539328http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/does-it-matter-now-if-someone-was-an-aryan-romila-thapar/

Sanjeet Kumar

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