What are some things you do for Dasara?

What's between letting things go and leaving over them?

  • Needs and Boundaries: What is the space between "I suppose I can let this go" and "this is an utter dealbreaker; do this thing or I'll have to end this relationship" - and what do you do about negotiating things in that space? I'm trying to improve my boundaries after a life of not being very good at them. I'm learning to speak up for myself and express my needs. But I have a question I hope you can help with. Sorry for the length - I want to include everything useful because this is anon. I keep coming across situations where I state my needs and boundaries, the other person responds with empathy and agrees to do something and then... nothing. These happen frequently - including with my husband, who has been my biggest cheerleader in this boundary-development. I don't know what to do in these cases. The things are not dealbreakers or ultimatum territory, but they're not small enough that I can just drop them either. Some of the are very immediate/short-term things, some draw out over years. I repeat my desires up to a point, but I don't want to nag constantly - especially when someone has already agreed to change something, but the change just doesn't happen. Some people say that boundaries work best with clearly stated consequences, but I'm not sure that's true between adults. I don't want to treat my husband or other adults like wilful kids. Besides, often I don't know what leverage I have between "I need you to do this" and "I need you to do this or I have to step back/end this relationship" I figure I can't be the only one who has this middle ground between things that can be compromised on and things that are worth ending a friendship or relationship over. So how do you handle them? Examples: Short-term: Last night my husband gave me a massage because I'm really achey from the flu. Despite my telling him what he was doing in some places was painful, telling him to stop or press more gently and even moving to block his access while I said again that he was hurting me, he continued to press too hard until I was literally crying from the pain. He acknowledged what I said every time, but actually moved my arms when I blocked him so that he could go back to pressing into the spot that was so tender. I let him, because I knew he'd heard me so I trusted him to be more gentle. His intentions were good, but I'm still sore the next morning. When I started to cry, he stopped, apologised and comforted me. But then he said "I should have remembered that you wouldn't say anything until it was already too much." Still crying, I not-quite-yelled at him that I didn't know what could be clearer than "Ow! Stop! That really hurts. I need you to be much more gentle in that spot or not touch it!" He apologised again and said it wasn't that I'd been unclear, it was a failure of empathy on his part. I know he felt bad, but I'm still a bit annoyed by that. Medium-term: I read http://ask.metafilter.com/210850/How-do-I-talk-about-something-deeply-embarrassing a few months ago, and it was an eye-opener for me. It gave me the nudge I needed to tell my husband that he was responsible for checking in front of the loo and cleaning up after himself. Well, now it's months later and I'm still getting damp toes or finding drips scattered around the toilet most nights. Mostly I ask him to stop what he's doing ASAP/get out of bed and come clean it, but sometimes I just tell him about it while I wipe things up myself because it seems like more trouble than it's worth to get him up for a job I can do in two seconds. He gets sad and self-critical about how he looked but didn't see anything to clean, but can see it when I'm standing there demanding he look again. I know noticing messes in the house is a learned skill and he isn't going to pick it up overnight, but I'm tired of nagging him about it. It can't be fun for him either. Long-term: My husband snores. White noise generators and earplugs can't compete - I'm driven out of our bed by it regularly. More worryingly, he seems to stop breathing during the night, which often wakes me up if I've managed to fall asleep next to him. It's not just me who says this; the doctor friend who stayed with us more than a year ago told him that he was stopping breathing at night and he HAD to do a sleep study and get checked for sleep apnoea. (Please don't start with the apnoea horror stories - I know it can be awful and I'm worried enough!) This is his own health I'm worried about, as well as my sleep. He's constantly tired, achey and fuzzy-brained. He never wants to go out or do anything more than watch a DVD or play video games when he gets home from work, because he's just so exhausted and has been for months, if not years. As I write he hasn't been up for sex for weeks. In the longer term, I know this could kill him. But it's been over a year since the friend told him to get this checked and he still hasn't arranged a sleep study. He saw our doctor a few months back, who agreed he should get one, but that's as far as it's gone. In fairness he's tried the nasal flush the doc suggested - it helps, but it didn't stop the snoring. I've gotten him anti-snore devices to try, that he ignores. He has actually given me a timeline for action on this one - once he's past a major project, he'll get a sleep study done. But it took my saying that if I didn't have proof that he was doing something about this soon, I was going to give up on trying to sleep next to him and move into the spare room. That's more of an ultimatum than I'm comfortable with, and this is his health on the line. It took seven years to get him to see a counsellor about his low-grade depression issues - and that only happened because I pushed him about it and he left me, then realised that the depression had caused him to make what he called "possibly the worst mistake of my life." Even then it was him who dropped me, not the other way around. None of these in themselves are things to end a 10-year marriage over, but they're not things I want to ignore either. I don't think I should have to deal with being hurt (even unintentionally) until I cry, with piss on the floor or with being unable to sleep in my own bed because the man I love is ignoring his own health. I don't want to be someone who threatens to leave over everydamnthing, but I don't know what to do in these scenarios. So what do you do, MeFites? Is this middle ground something that exists for everyone, or should I re-evaluate? If it exists, how do you deal with it? I feel like I've singled out my husband and made him look pretty awful in this post. Our relationship is good, even if it isn't perfect. This is not a question about whether I should leave him or not. Thank you for understanding that.

  • Answer:

    First of all, if someone id giving you a massage and it hurts, you do not sit there until you cry; you tell them to stop and then you get up and walk away. Second of all, the thing between letting things go and leaving over them is getting pissed off. Stop asking nicely over and over and start shouting: "DUDE, your piss is on the floor and it's fucking gross, come deal with it!" Alternatively, "I am sick of reminding you about the drips in front of the toilet and sick of stepping in them. Tell me what you are going to do to make this your problem and not mine." And then stand there until he comes up with an answer. The things he can do are not rocket science - you can keep http://www.scrubbingbubbles.com/Products/Pages/bathroom-wipes.aspx on the toilet tank, for example, and if he can't tell when he drips, he can wipe every. single. time. He's a grown-assed man, he should be able to figure that out, right?

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Other answers

It's not boundaries, but assertiveness that you need to work on. Assertiveness is different from enforcing a point of view. When you are assertive, the other person takes you seriously, not because you will do something to them otherwise, but because of how you express yourself.

Obscure Reference

You need to stop asking and just find a solution and do it. For example, move into the spare bedroom tonight. Inform him you will be happy to sleep in the same bed again just as soon as he has found a solution to the snoring. Do not be bitchy or mad. Do not withold sex. Vindictiveness is not going to solve anything. But stop asking and stop trying to manipulate his behavior. Instead, start taking action. Next time he hurts you during a massage, the massage is simply over. Period. If you have two bathrooms, declare one yours and one his. He can dribble on his floor all he likes and clean it up whenever he feels like it. You are no longer cleaning his bathroom and if you use his bathroom you won't complain about the mess. He cannot use your bathroom. If he does not respect this boundary, buy a lock with a key for your bathroom and install it yourself or pay someone else or get a friend to do it. Do not give him the key. If physically enforcing your own boundaries causes him to push back and try all the harder to literally and figuratively piss on you, that's the time to seriously consider leaving. Some people have a very hard time changing. But if you can find a real solution that you can implement with minimal imposition on their poor memory or other weak area, they are fine with it. But abusive people aren't fine with it when you find a real solution. Once you know which kind of person you are married to, it makes it tons easier to decide what to do next.

Michele in California

Your husband knows you won't do anything. He knows if he says the right words, makes it seem as if he's trying, he won't have to actually put forth the effort to change anything. In a way, he's calling your bluff. Do what DarlingBri and Michele in California suggested. Stop asking nicely and put the consequences in action. Say you're fucking tired of dealing with X and until it's fixed, you're going to sleep in the spare/he can only use one of two bathrooms. (Also wtf if someone is hurting you during a massage and moving your arms when you try to shield yourself, you absolutely flip out and get up and walk away. Then you get angry at them. Don't accept an apology easily - he was willfully and knowingly hurting you!) Dumping someone isn't the only consequence for boundary-violating behaviour. A good midpoint is removing yourself from their company until they shape up, saying that you don't want to be around them so long as they continue to do X. If they continue to do X, then they've just told you that they don't care about your wishes. Do with that what you will.

buteo

I tend to view everything in life as negotiable, and that applies to relationships too. If I want something out of a relationship that my partner doesn't want to give me, I need to offer them an incentive that I might not otherwise give. Likewise, if my partner wants something out of the relationship that I'm not interested in, they need to offer me an incentive. If the thing in question is really difficult for one person, then whomever wants it needs to make a good offer. For example, seeing my significant other every day is something that I would rather not do, but it's not a big deal to me. For me to agree to something like this, I'd probably ask for something like my partner preparing a meal for me every other day, so that I have more time to fit them into my schedule. On the other hand, if it were something like asking for an open relationship (I'm naturally monogamous) I would ask for a ton of restrictions and rules to make sure I was getting a good deal and that my partner wasn't neglecting me or getting much more sex than I was. The take-away from this is that before you ask for something, you need to think about how big a deal it is to your partner and what you might be able to offer in exchange. If you aren't prepared to offer something for it, then you're not negotiating, you're demanding - and your partner is fully within their rights to ignore demands. Disclaimer - this is not meant to justify your husband's behavior: he sounds very insensitive and I can see why you'd be upset. My point is that your question came off to me as somewhat entitled because you are framing this as "How can I change him?" as opposed to "What can I offer him to get him to want to change?"

wolfdreams01

I think you need to let go of the backrub issue. You explicitly told him he could keep pressing there if he did so more gently. He can't read your mind and understand exactly how hard is too hard. This is not a failure of empathy. He's guessing, and guesses are imperfect. Pain is sometimes a natural consequence of well-intended actions; that's just life. You're free to end the massage when it's no longer good for you, but it doesn't make sense to hold a grudge over this. The piss and the sleep apnea seem like much more important issues to tackle, and they're not easy ones. All I can offer is that you should remember to say positive things about behaviors you like much more often than you complain about things you don't like. If he's ever going to do these things regularly it will because doing them makes him feel good, not because you've made him feel bad every time he didn't do them.

jon1270

When I started to cry, he stopped, apologised and comforted me. But then he said "I should have remembered that you wouldn't say anything until it was already too much." Still crying, I not-quite-yelled at him that I didn't know what could be clearer than "Ow! Stop! That really hurts. I need you to be much more gentle in that spot or not touch it!" To be honest, there is something really weird and off to me about your husband's behavior here. In particular, his first "apology" struck me as extremely manipulative/gaslighting. Maybe he's not intentionally being manipulative, maybe there is something else that's just off, maybe he has problems processing... something or other. But I don't know. Is this the only occasion where he's said something negative yet demonstrably false about you, to turn something that's his fault into your failing? I also think jon1270 was totally right about this: Your husband knows you won't do anything. He knows if he says the right words, makes it seem as if he's trying, he won't have to actually put forth the effort to change anything. In a way, he's calling your bluff.

cairdeas

PS-Sleep Apnea can and does cause depression too. It affects just about every aspect of your life. I cannot stress enough just how much better his life will be if he will take action!

St. Alia of the Bunnies

Ditto that the massage thing is worrisome. It gave me the nudge I needed to tell my husband that he was responsible for checking in front of the loo and cleaning up after himself. Well, now it's months later and I'm still getting damp toes or finding drips scattered around the toilet most nights. Mostly I ask him to stop what he's doing ASAP/get out of bed and come clean it, but sometimes I just tell him about it while I wipe things up myself because it seems like more trouble than it's worth to get him up for a job I can do in two seconds. He gets sad and self-critical about how he looked but didn't see anything to clean, but can see it when I'm standing there demanding he look again. I know noticing messes in the house is a learned skill and he isn't going to pick it up overnight, but I'm tired of nagging him about it. It can't be fun for him either. Okay... So, if you approach your husband with a problem and get an agreement out of him to take care of it, and then you wind up taking care of it yourself, you are undermining yourself in a big way because you're showing him that you're not entirely serious about the agreement you're asking him to make. You're showing him that the way to placate you is to tell you what you want to hear, and that the follow-through isn't that big of a deal. The thing is that it ISN'T more trouble than it's worth for you to go to him and ask him to take care of it. That, in essence, is what he's agreeing to when he agrees to be responsible for it. He should be thinking that it's "more trouble than it's worth" to slack off when it comes to this after hearing you complain about it and recognizing that it's something that's clearly on his side of the line. The sadness and self-criticism strike me as manipulative. Get at the root of whatever the problem is here. If he's "having trouble noticing," get him on a schedule, like cleaning every single time, or to sit when he does his business, or have him use a different bathroom, or trade you for a chore that you hate doing. And press him every time there continues to be a problem so that he knows you mean business when you come to him with an issue. This isn't you being nagging; it's you expecting him to follow up with his end of the agreements he makes with you; it's you merely insisting that he communicates honestly with you. You might want to read Crucial Confrontations, to be sure that there isn't something about the way you're approaching the conversation that isn't making the problem worse.

alphanerd

In your examples, I don't see any boundaries, only needs. Boundaries are "if X happens, I will do Y." What makes that different than an ultimatum is that a ultimatum is "if YOU do/don't do X then I will do Y". Ultimatums give the power to someone other than you. So with your sleep apnea example (I get that it's an example, but I'm using it for simplicity's sake): Boundary: "I don't sleep in the same room with people who snore. If someone is snoring, I move to another room." Then, when he snores, move. Ultimatum: "If you don't get a sleep apnea test, I'm moving to the spare bedroom."

lyssabee

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