Find solution
How would you handle a special handling situation in the absence of any information or proper documentation?

No Contract, But Email Documentation - Do I have a case for Small Claims?

  • I prepaid for music lessons, no contract, but no longer want the lessons - can I get a full refund for the remaining lessons - Please read on, there is more. I want to know if I have a case for small claims. So, about a week ago, I got my boyfriend a gift for his birthday, three months of sitar lessons. He and the teacher did not mesh well, on many levels, and he decided that he no longer wanted the lessons, and we contacted the teacher to see if we could get a refund. What follows is our exact communication. From him to me: Hello M, I hope you're doing well. I enjoyed meeting you when you came by. A had his first lessons a few days ago and I enjoyed teaching him. I just got an email from him, however, saying that he lost his job. He asked me to refund the money you paid for lessons. I thought I remembered you saying that he was in between jobs at the moment and that this was a gift to cheer him up. I have never had to refund lessons before, and of course, I'm willing to do it, however, I'd like to clarify the situation. I am a professional musician. Having students pay for lessons in advance, and then ask for the money back is quite inconvenient for me, and my book keeping. Please let me know what you'd like to do. Best, J To which I replied: Hi J, Thank you for the email making sure that we are all on the same page. Last night A and I did talk about the lessons and he did tell me that he would like to really focus on getting a new job and relevant job skills. He did tell me that he would like to drop the lessons, and that he would email you to tell you this. He does not see himself taking up the lessons again, at least not anytime soon. I understand how inconvient this is for you, and I do apologize for that. I did not anticipate this occuring. I do remember that you said that you require 24 hours notice for cancellation, without which you would have to charge for the lesson. This seems to apply, I am just having to cancel all lessons from here on forward. I would like to have the remainder of my money refunded to me, $440.00, and I do again apologize for the confusion and inconvience to you. I would prefer to have a check sent to me at my home, if possible. (Included address) Thank you and best of luck to you, M Then... he replied... Hello M, Thank you for getting back to me. I appreciate you clarifying the matter. I have talked this out with many other teaching musicians about this situation. None of them, including, me, have ever been asked, or had actually refunded lesson fees because of a change of heart. I believe you misunderstood my cancellation requests- the 24 hour notice meant that you didn't have to pay for the lesson at the scheduled time. We would reschedule a lesson; I would not refund you the money. This is standard practice for prepaid music lessons. I do not want to get in the middle of your relationship with you your boy friend- however, I have a business to run. I hope you can understand that I can't have students pre-paying for lessons and then requesting their money back- how could I make a living like that? We agreed on a service, you paid me for that service, and I scheduled lessons for A for the next 3 months. It is up to you, the consumer, to make sure that you want the service before you pay for it. I'm sorry but I do not think I can refund you the money. I have had many students pay for lessons, and then not use them- but they have always forfeited the prepaid amount. If you would like to change the time and dates of these lessons that's fine. We can do lessons twice a month, once a month, or what every works for A and his new schedule. I have A scheduled for a lesson Tuesday Oct. 21st at 3pm. Please let me know if A will attend this lesson, or if he'd like to reschedule it. Sincerely, J J, I am surprised by your response, for two different reasons. One, in your previous email you explicitly stated that you were willing to refund me my money, you just wanted some clarification. I gave such clarification, yet you are not willing to stand by your statement that you will return my money for the unused portion of the music lessons. Two, I disagree that it is standard practice to keep money for services not rendered. Neither of us agreed to such an arrangement at any point in time. In fact, a simple google search of "music lessons refund prepaid" will show you that many professional musicians across the country will and do refund any money that is remaining if a student requests to discontinue the lessons. But more importantly, I would expect a professional musician to stand by his or her word, yours being that you are willing to refund me, per your previous email. Thank you, M Hello M, I am sorry for the confusion. I wrote that first email without thoroughly thinking through the situation. I am sorry for the disagreement. If other musicians are willing to refund prepaid lesson fees (as you claim to have found on Google), that's their business. But its certainly not standard. I have never done it, nor to I know anyone who has. As I have been a professional musician for the better part of a decade, and this has been my policy, I do not feel obligated to chance it now. Also, as a music student for the past 20 years, every teacher I have studied with has had the same policy. I studied with musicians through institutions, and privately. It has been the same. I paid for lessons, and if I did not use them, or want to use them, they were not obligated to refund me the unused lesson fees. As I have this experience both teaching and receiving lessons, I would say I am quite qualified to speak to what is standard practice for lessons and what is not. If you were unsure whether or not A wanted sitar lessons, you should not have paid for 12 lessons in advance. You should have paid for 1 or two and taken it from there. You and A entered into a commitment with me. I am of course, willing to honor my side of the commitment. Please let me know whether or not I should expect A this Tuesday at 3pm. Sincerely, J A (my boyfriend) also wrote to J about this. J- > > I have been updated on the situation. I think you are acting very > > unproffesional and wish we could resolve this amicably. I will not have my > > girlfriend taken advantage of. If we can not reach an agreement within the > > next day or two, I will consult a laywer and go to small claims court. You > > can not take someone's money and not give it back with no service rendered. > > I feel very confident in our position (and this goes beyond money now, it is > > principle). I would like to save a lot of time but, I am not dropping this, > > and if I don't hear back from you within a couple of days I am going to > > follow through with legal action. Thank you. > > -A HI A. Please Send Me Your Phone Number And I'll Give You A Call > Tomorrow. I'm In Seattle At The Moment And Can't Type Much. Best, J j- I would like to keep this all on e-mail for the record. I find it amazing how you are handling this. You took a really thoughtful gift for my birthday and turned it into a huge headache. I am assuming you are going to keep denying m her money (even when you initially said you would give it back to her) so, I will go forward with small claims court on monday. I will wait to see how that plays out and depending on how you handle this and, what the court allows me to do... I will also start posting on craigslist and other local online boards illustrating my experience with you and that you will rip off people of their money. I will be sure to let people know how you burn customers. I believe it is in my right to take action on consumer complaints web sites and radio. I don't want other people to get ripped off like you ripped off us and it will be my mission to illustrate this experience to every person who may consider lessons with you. So, I find this all very unfortunate but, I have nothing but time to pursue this and, will take any and all legal action against you. Thank you. a Hello A and M, I'm very sorry it has come to this as well. I have tried very hard to always handle myself with professionalism, and I'm very sorry this situation has snowballed to where it has. When you pre-pay for a lessons, you are making a commitment. You are paying for my time in advance, and exchange for your commitment, I offer a discount on my lesson fees. How could I possibly run my business if I have students making commitments to me, and breaking them left and right? If there was any hint of question as to whether or not you would want 12 lessons, then she should not have pre-paid for them, but rather offered to pay for one and see if it was something that you enjoyed. Please allow me to quote from M's email on Sept 28th: "For my boyfriend's birthday, I gave him a sitar as an early birthday present. He has been wanting one ever since I have known him. In any case, I would like to have something to actually give him on his birthday (October 12th), and I thought lessons would compliment his early gift well." Clearly she thought you would enjoy these lessons, and therefor committed both you, and me to 12 hours of instruction. This commitment was made by her paying for the lessons. I am still willing, and actually eager to provide the service for which you paid. These lessons will not expire, and you can use them at your leisure. I also teach western music- classical, jazz, theory, blues, rock, latin and many other styles on bass and in theory. If you would like to use your lesson time in this capacity, that is fine with me. I have spoken with every teaching professional musician I know to get counsel on this situation. Every one of them agreed that I should not refund the money- that pre-paying for a lesson is a commitment to the lessons by the student. If there is any doubt on the students end, then they should not pre-pay. Michelle came to me and offered to pre-pay for 12 lessons, and also offered to pay in cash. I would like to quote from her email again: "I was also wondering if I could pay for 3 months of lessons in advance (or, approximately the end of December). That way he can't protest the present and say it is too much, etc, etc... I would like to have it already arranged." M to me, J, on Sept. 28th. In the interest of ending this quickly, without further hassle, I would like to make a proposal. This is a proposal other musicians have called 'generous' mind you. I would propose that I refund 50% of the unused lesson fees. The unused amount is $435. That is equal to the full amount paid, $480, minus $45 for the first lesson, since I charge $40 for a lesson if the student pre-pays for 4 or more at a time. Since you are currently asking to back out of that pre-arrangement, my fee will be $45 for the first lesson. I am offering you $218.50 as a refund for the 11 unused lessons, with 50% the original payment as a cancellation fee. In accepting this fee, and the refund, you are waiving your right to bring me to small claims court, and also agree not to write negative reviews on any message board, forum, website, etc. If that is not satisfactory, I am happy to try to work this out in small claims court. I feel that my position is unimpeachable, and quite standard practice in the music community. There is a phrase that comes to mined, 'All sales are final'. If you do not want to accept my cancellation fee, and feel compelled to write about me on message boards online or elsewhere, voicing your dissatisfaction, that is fine. You are entitled to do so. I would just ask that you be 100% truthful about the situation. Your girlfriend pre-paid and made a commitment for 12 lessons for you. She was not aware that there I do not offer refunds for prepaid lessons, and after your first lesson, you decided it was not something you wanted to pursue. You and M asked for a refund. I initally offered to reund the money, but upon speaking to many other professional teaching musicians on the subject, decided it was standard practice not to refund pre-paid lessons. If you write anything other than the absolute truth on any of these message boards, Craigslist or anywhere else, I will use it against you in small claims court and sue you for slander, liable and damages to my reputation (which, until and including now, has been pristine). Best, J J, I will be consulting with a lawyer on Monday, after which I will inform you of my next step. I have printed and copied all e-mails, and your myspace page and website - time and date stamped - to show that you do not mention any kind of policy regarding refunds for services not rendered. And, as long as we are quoting e-mails, may I remind you that in your first e-mail to me regarding this matter, written on Wednesday, October 15th, you wrote "I have never had to refund lessons before, and of course, I'm willing to do it, however, I'd like to clarify the situation." You then went on to state that it is merely "quite inconvenient for me, and my book keeping." -Not that you would not do it, nor that it was against any kind of 'standard practice.' Lastly, you asked me to "Please let me know what you'd like to do."I let you know what it was that I wanted to do (have the refund), and then you decided to disregard what you had previously stated and determined that you were not going to give the refund. I do agree that the first lesson should be charged at the $45 level, but, at this point in time, I am not yet ready to agree to the compromise you have proposed. I will get back to you on this after consulting with a lawyer on Monday. Thank you, M Sorry this is such a long posting, but it seemed necessary to include all the information. It seems to me that we are entitled to the remaining refund of $435, and after hearing why we no longer wanted the lessons, he decided to not give the refund, which should have nothing to do with it - particularly since he initially stated that he would give the refund. I am serious about pursuing this in small claims, and I realize that having no contract is a problem - however, it seems as though we are entitled to the refund. Are there any lawyers out there or any one with similar experiences? Do we have a case? Thanks so much!

  • Answer:

    The point of pre-paying lessons is so that the musician/teacher (who often is in serious need of funds) can _know_ how much money he/she has to work with for the next several weeks or months. Otherwise, the sporadic nature of music work makes things like paying regular rent and utilities a bit problematic. Music is fun, but the lack of stable income is not. Hence, the willingness to significantly cut costs for students - the teacher is exchanging a certain amount of money (the difference between full, non-prepaid lesson rate and the discounted, prepaid rate) for one thing and one thing only: predictability, the knowledge that, no matter what happens, at least he'll have this much money to work with over the next little while. All he has to do is honor his commitment to teach at the agreed time & place. He can count on keeping the $$ if he just holds up his end of the bargain. Now, you're demanding your $$ back. He may have already spent the money, or have committed to paying rent or some other bill with it, or turned away _other potential students_ because you guys had that implicit contract. I really think you're just out the money. I'd say it might be reasonable to hope for a partial refund, but now you've gotten into threats to sue, and insulting his professionalism, so he's not going to want to be nice -- that would seem to be admitting something untrue, which is your assertion that he's acting dishonestly. If he'd had an explicit policy of refunding money for unused lessons, then you might have a case. But printing the web site to show that he _doesn't_ have _any_ refund policy? That really works to his advantage, not yours, I'd think. Of course I'm not a lawyer. But I do kind of feel sorry for this music teacher. Even if he was a jerk to your boyfriend during his first lesson or two, there could be any number of reasons for that. You might be able to recoup part of the $$ by finding someone who's interested in taking your unused lessons by paying you a partial rate -- but ONLY if the teacher agrees. It's not a small thing for a teacher, agreeing to spend part of every week helping someone else learn his art.

KoobieKitten at Ask.Metafilter.Com Visit the source

Was this solution helpful to you?

Other answers

nthing he does not owe you a cent. you paid for a service, which he is willing to provide, and than lost interest in the service. unless i am misreading things, your boyfriend was less than truthful in the initial email. if i were in the instructors situation i would not go out of my way to help people who lied to me either.

phil

You need to sell these sitar lessons to someone else.

hAndrew

I find it inconceivable that, if you take this to small claims court, you will end up with a better deal than the 50/50 split the teacher has offered you. You'll waste your own time, have an unpleasant argument with the teacher, and you might have to pay costs too. By far your best bet is to accept the offer, and put this behind you. I sincerely hope your boyfriend does not go ahead with his threat to sully the teacher's reputation on craiglist. Yes, you are disagreeing about the fees, but that does not make the teacher a rip-off artist. That message is highly aggressive, and the teacher's reply is far more reasonable than I would have managed.

beniamino

I think the double standard here is that, because he's a single person with a name and a face, rather than an impersonal institution, you somehow feel entitled to a refund. As with the fitness center analogy above, try buying a bus pass and then asking for half your money back on the 15th of the month. (Full disclosure: I've been a professional musician for 15 years, although I have never offered pay-up-front terms such as his for the inverse of this situation -- I value the ability to drop, immediately, any students who view my job with the lack of respect you seem to view his.) The teacher offered a totally reasonable proposition: Pay $X per lesson up front, or more than $X per lesson one at a time. As others have noted, your discount is the price he pays for a stable income, and is an exchange service providers around the world (bus lines, fitness centers, you name it) make all the time. The fact that you grant him less respect, as a professional, than you would grant a clerk at the train station is particularly frustrating to professional musicians. He has likely spent his entire life training for this job, which rewards him with unpredictable income and unsteady employment (think for a moment about when someone might start training to be a doctor or a lawyer -- this teacher has likely been training for this job since he was seven). The least you can do is treat his policies as seriously as you would treat the signs on the bus. Please don't take this to small claims court; it's beneath all of you. Although he has no business reason whatsoever to offer a refund, I can totally understand why he would. Professional music is hard enough without having to deal with unpleasant, unreasonable clients -- at this point it's probably worth $220 to him just to make you go away.

range

I don't understand why your boyfriend lied about his reason for not wanting the lessons any more. If he had explained that he thought the he and the teacher weren't a good fit, the teacher might have had something to go on and could possibly even have made arrangements for a sitar-teaching colleague to take over the lessons, who knows? As it is, in the above email exchange I think that the teacher comes across as very professional, and you and (especially) your boyfriend, not so much. The teacher has made it clear that he wants to give the lessons, and failing that he's prepared to refund half your money. Nobody has said anything to him about the arrangement not working out, so he's completely in the dark about that. I think that you would be better off dealing with big companies/businesses in the future, not dealing with individuals who are clearly just trying to turn an honest buck and instead are getting stuffed around by clients who don't know what they want, won't say what the problem really is, and expect others to pay for their indecision/mistakes. I find it especially ironic that you are angry with the teacher for changing his mind about what he would do - when that's exactly what you have done!

different

You both are being unreasonable expecting any refund . He has even offered to settle with you for $220. Your boyfriend has decided not to show up for lessons purchased. The teacher says he is willing to do the lessons. Pretty clear cut, and I would assume any mediator would explain this to you.

dripped

How on earth will the instructor "lose his professional demeanor" by taking the OP to small claims court? In my eyes, he's actually enhancing his professional demeanor by enforcing his policies. One post on the internet saying "i asked for my money back and he wouldn't give it to me!" isn't going to hurt his business if he's a good instructor. if he's a crappy instructor, that will get around and will hurt his reputation. You don't need a lawyer to go to small claims court and neither does he. The filing fees for small claims court are minor and reasonable, and cases are generally heard in the evening, so as to allow people the opportunity to use the court system without having to take time off work. As others have posted, it is unlikely you will actually go in front of a judge but instead go in front of a mediator, who may or may not decide in your favor, but will encourage you both to work out a settlement. As a private instructor, whether for music lessons, english lessons or anything else similar, it is indeed common practice that students pay up front. otherwise 80% of them would never show up. it's not even just a cash flow issue. how can a teacher book their time efficiently if every day was a crap shoot? compare that to someone who's bought and paid for tuesdays at 10am as opposed to having to set up a different schedule every day. i'm not sure how much i buy the whole 'the teacher didn't mesh well' bit. Learning sitar is HARD. everyone thinks they can be george harrison or ravi shankar but it is VERY HARD and takes a lot more discipline than people imagine and someone who just wants to learn it for a lark might not enjoy going to lessons where someone actually wants their students to learn and progress. personally i think it's pretty sleazy for your boyfriend to ask for the cash because he's hard up. you bought him a thoughtful gift.

micawber

I think the question is whether the court will favor the OPs Buyer's Remorse over the teacher's Offer Remorse. It might be a big gamble. 1. I think the court might consider that neither side thought about the issue of what happens if it doesn't work out. The teacher has no stated refund policy - or more to the point -hadn't really thought through what their policy was. On the other hand, the OP never asked what the policy was. Both just assumed it would work out or better yet never come up. 2. The teacher's failure to think through what their policy was meant that they have been giving conflicting, confusing messages. So I can see why the OP feels poorly done by. The teacher's letter does clearly state that they would give a refund. Regardless of all the 'what is the standard, who didn't tell the truth, who escalated', I understand how the OP feels there's a bit of bait and switch, because the teacher did not intimate that there was anything about wanting a clarification that would alter his statement that would change is mind. Also, the teacher is also trying a powerplay (saying he's checked with his musician friends - he should have done that before he responded to the OP - and pointing out that THEY think his 50% offer is reasonable, as if that should sway the OP). It's more subtle than the OP's threats of a lawyer, but no less eyebrow raising. But in the end, the question is will small claims court look at this question narrowly, and only focus on this point. 3. I don't know. The court could decide that the OPs buyer's remorse is equal to the teacher's offer remorse, because clearly the teacher wishes he hadn't said that he'd give the refund. 4. I would worry that the court would consider itself in a mediator's role because, well: A. The industry standard on refunds could go either way. B. the OPs boyfriend may have lied about the reasons for wanting the refund. So they didn't 'negotiate in good faith', but attempted to either play on the teacher's sympathies or also don't like conflict and tried to avoid it. C. They escalated quickly - threatening a lawyer and public shaming. Certainly both are tools, but invoking both at the same time is often a powerplay used by people who feel awfully powerless. Ironically, the teacher attempting to compromise at this point rather than before, just reinforced to the OP that continuing to put the squeeze on him might get them back the rest of the amount. It might be legal, but it makes the teacher sympathetic, encouraging a mediated decision. 5. And since mediation is at it's core, compromise - the 50/50 split that the teacher offered is probably where this will all end up. Unfortunately, it also means the OP won't feel the 'fairness' of this decision because they will come out with something that was already on the table. They wont feel as if they 'gained' anything. (It the teacher offered $100, and they came out with $200, they might have) 6. Hopefully neither will cling to their position, and consider that both sides wish that they had handled it differently. The psychic/health toll on this is always higher than the money cost in situation like this, I think - particularly when people dig in their heels. But from now on the teacher will probably have a stated policy and the OP will always ask about one. But good for you, OP, for feeling angry, but still being willing to turn to your community to consider more perspectives, and more advice, possibly even to consider taking the $200. That's hard to do when people feel done wrong, harder when the other side won't acknowledge that their actions were part of the problem. Who knows if the teacher's colleagues are pointing out how he could have handled this differently - because he could have. He might never acknowledge that now, seeing how this has escalated on both sides. But good luck in moving forward.

anitanita

I prepaid my fitness center for a year. I never even went once. How successful do you thing I'd be if I wanted my money back?

dhoe

Load more

Related Q & A:

Just Added Q & A:

Find solution

For every problem there is a solution! Proved by Solucija.

  • Got an issue and looking for advice?

  • Ask Solucija to search every corner of the Web for help.

  • Get workable solutions and helpful tips in a moment.

Just ask Solucija about an issue you face and immediately get a list of ready solutions, answers and tips from other Internet users. We always provide the most suitable and complete answer to your question at the top, along with a few good alternatives below.