When do I look for non-academic jobs?
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When do I look for non-academic jobs if I'm trying to transition out of academia, and which jobs do I look for? (I have a math PhD.) So I'm looking for an academic job. (I've posted about this http://ask.metafilter.com/150944/Math-PhD-with-trouble-getting-academic-job-in-US-What-next, last time I looked for one.) I have a one-year position, for the current academic year.) So I'm applying now for jobs that will start in the fall semester of 2011. But I'm not one hundred percent sure that I want an academic job. I have one now, and I'm not satisfied with it. But it's the end of the semester and it's my first semester here, which both work against me. And even if I do want one, there's always the chance that I won't get one. So I should probably be thinking about non-academic jobs. The first question, then: when do I start looking? Let's say, hypothetically, that I'd want to start sometime in the summer of 2011. I keep hearing things like "it takes on average N months to find a job", where N is some ridiculously large number like nine. And what do I do in order to look? This is really the new part of the question; what's below duplicates my previous question a lot but gives context. Of course this depends on what sort of job I'd want. Brief summary: my PhD, earned six months ago, is in math, more specifically probability and combinatorics. I don't know statistics (beyond the level of an intro course) and don't program in any real language (although I hack stuff together in Maple pretty routinely, and this one time I took an algorithms course but it didn't require us to write any code), but I'm kind of underemployed now so I have time to learn. I'm currently in the Bay Area but have no real connections here, but I like it here. So I'd be willing to relocate but also willing to stay. In theory I like teaching, but in practice I'm finding that teaching large classes of somewhat apathetic students is no fun. I find myself saying that I'd like to teach if only the students wanted to learn. I like the idea of doing research. But I feel like the directions that my academic research is going in are way too shaped by what the academic job market wants. If I'm going to do something that I wouldn't do if I weren't getting paid for it, I want it to be something that actually helps people somehow. Yes, I know this is vague. I don't know what I want to do with my life.
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Answer:
I'm a math phd student (but with an emphasis in statistics, which SOUNDS more marketable, even though you would probably know as much practical stats as I do if you studied for 6 months) - and I've never wanted an academic job. There are http://www.quora.com/Which-startups-in-San-Francisco-Bay-Area-are-hiring of jobs in the Bay area for math-type people. Since you have some time, my suggestion is to find people who have non-academic jobs and ask about what they do. Find your http://www.informs.org/Participate-In-a-Community/Regional-Chapters/Northern-California-Chapter (probabilistic modeling is a big branch of OR), http://www.meetup.com/R-Users/ (you should learn R!), http://www.sfasa.org/ if you're willing to pick up some statistics (but we get a lot of people who are the probability end of prob and stats depts), search meetup.com for something likely looking, ask local schools about career info... The main thing is that you will learn more about what people actually do in those non-academic jobs, and maybe figure out which subsets of those sound interesting to you. Don't be too stressed about a particular programming language - though you might want to pick up one - usually places expect you to be able to learn what they use, not come in as an expert in it. They know they're not hiring you to be a software engineer.
madcaptenor at Ask.Metafilter.Com Visit the source
Other answers
oh - and my impression is that normal places that want to hire people want to hire you within a month or two of meeting you. National Labs, govt contractors etc maybe longer. But I wouldn't worry about a full on job hunt until March or so. That's just my impression!
ansate
@madcaptenor -- yes, I've actually sat in on some of the TA training (I can't remember if it was engineering and computer science-specific or whether it was generic, because it was several years ago). It's pretty shocking to me that this is unusual, but I guess it's better than nothing. I also understand the "in school forever" feeling. You can teach yourself a lot, though, if you look into it. There are some online sources in my comments here: http://ask.metafilter.com/164929/Whats-the-textbook-for-maths-teachers and you can also check out http://mathforum.org/mathed/professional.dev.html The SJSU/downtown San Jose library (open to anyone who gets a card) has a decent selection of recent books, and presumably the library you have access does as well. So as long as you're teaching, you might as well take a look. Again, good luck with whatever you do! I really think the world could use another math teacher with a clue and a heart, but people also need to be happy and, you know, have roofs over their heads.
wintersweet
Answering your question, one of the really compelling things about doing math for finance is that math, properly applied, translates directly into cash. So despite crashes, math skills, especially in the hands of someone who can see how to apply them to the market, are indispensible. If you turned out to be a person who had an aptitude such as this, your bosses would find someone to do the programming for you. That said, having some programming savvy could never hurt. Government and regulatory entities are now also more aware of their need for understanding on the math side of things, although in my limited experience, I'd doubt that they'd be all that interesting. I also second ansate - you've got time!
MisterMo
I forgot I had already sung the praises of Project NExT. Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a broken record. I think you have the right idea about insisting on being at a place where you'll enjoy the work. Not only did you bust ass to get a math Phd and sort of deserve it, but there ARE departments that will value you as more than just a minion. However, there are also MANY departments that are rife with disfunction. One of my favorite "over beers" questions to ask other mathematicians is "What is the most messed up department you know about?" You hear some interesting stories and learn to avoid certain places. Good luck with your search! If it's any consolation, I'm still on the job market too. Every year you do it makes you a little better. You just got your degree so I wouldn't necessarily give up on academia yet, especially if you enjoy teaching.
El_Marto
El_Marto: I think you actually recommended Project NExT to me before. I couldn't have actually applied to it this year, because I got my job after their application deadline. I will definitely keep it in mind. Your point about geography also makes sense. I'm trying to avoid ending up in a job I dislike that's also in a place I wouldn't want to live in. It's a form of insurance. (This "collegiality" you talk about? I don't have it here.) But I am not really worried about ending up in a stereotypically "good" geographical location. What scares the hell out of me is that I have no control over where I end up. If I wanted to find a non-academic job, I could reasonably limit my search to a not-too-ridiculously-huge geographic area (say, a single state). Looking for an academic job, I almost feel like I'm being picky by insisting that I want to stay on this continent.
madcaptenor
I don't have an answer for your main question (about finding jobs outside of academia) but I do have some thoughts about some of the other points you raised. If you find yourself on the fence about teaching because you don't feel like you've had adequate training, then I can't recommend http://archives.math.utk.edu/projnext/ enough. A lot of math departments view teaching as a necessary evil and train their graduate students accordingly. I got my Phd from a department that actually did give quite a bit of training, but even so there's quite a big difference in being a graduate student vs. being a professor. Project NExT was the perfect opportunity in post graduate training (and networking!) If you stick with academia, make institutional support for Project NExT one of your bargaining points in your next job. I would also encourage you to rethink your stance about living in the middle of nowhere just to have an academic job. I grew up in a largish city in California with thoughts that everything between Nevada and New York was a cultural backwater. My first job out of grad school was in BFE Georgia, and though it did suck profoundly, it gave me a lot of experience that proved invaluable when I decided to move on. Since then, I've lived in Lexington, KY (which was awesome!) and now live in a small town in Texas (also awesome). Ultimately, what matters to me is the quality and collegiality of the department I'm in, not my time zone. You might have a similar experience.
El_Marto
Try the http://ask.metafilter.com/154071/Careers-for-Pure-Mathematicians#2208909 for a year or three. At worst you'll come out of it with an air of mystery that will confound and impress future colleagues. Another http://ask.metafilter.com/146356/PhDespair of http://ask.metafilter.com/124750/Do-I-need-the-PhD-to-work-in-industry questions that mention the NSA as an option.
Ahab
Another finance shop that hires a lot of mathematicians is https://www.renfund.com/vm/index.vm.
dfriedman
ansate: Thanks for your suggestions for where to find out what people are doing. But I wouldn't worry about a full on job hunt until March or so. That's good to hear. By then I should have some idea how the academic job hunt is going. I still have the sense that my attitude toward academic jobs might swing back; I'm kind of thinking that maybe by the time someone makes me an offer I'll actually want the job they're offering.
madcaptenor
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