Sometimes I need a caretaker myself...

Best advice a therapist ever gave me: "There are givers and there are takers. Givers tend to find themselves surrounded by takers, which is draining. But what they really need most is to surround themselves with other givers. Only a giver can turly appreciate another giver and provide the support they need, looking for nothing in return."

Some people are jerks and this is true whether or not you are a giver or a taker or a family member or a friend or a stranger. However (and I say this as someone who sees myself in a lot of what you write) there is a certain sort of person who finds other peoples' jerkiness a challenge and a puzzle that they might be able to solve. This is where you are going to make yourself nuts. This is quite common in children who come from families of addicts, alchoholics or other people who must be taken care of at all costs, no matter how high. You learn to set all of your own hopes and dreams aside because you CAN and help others with their lives because you feel that you MUST. Simply put, you don't have to do this even though it can feel terrible if you don't. So, for a few anecdotes. - I have a few depressed friends. One of them would use me as her sounding board when she got really low and I was her "talk her off the ledge" friend (not quite literally), which felt good in some ways, I was helping my friend. But I'd also do this when it was terribly inconvenient for me which felt like a stretch. And then I had a rough patch and my friend wasn't really there for me. She sort of was, but not really, and she definitely didn't move heaven and earth to help me out. So I made a choice, for me, that if I was going to continue to be the ledge-talker I was going to do it for my own reasons, not for any sort of reciprocity. This means that sometimes I do say "you're going to have to find someone else to talk to right now" which feels terrible, but it also feels like it's a better decision for me taking care of ME, not just me taking care of others. Over time I've grown more comfortable wiht that and over time our relationship has balanced out. - the wake up call for me was my last long relationship where my partner went to law school. It played out like the predictable stereotype [I was the emotional support through school, then we split and he dates someone ten years younger than me] and while I didn't feel that I had put my own life on hold, I did feel that I had put my own hopes of a reciprocal relationship on hold because he was so busy and I was so understanding of that. That was a bad idea. It's easy to point at him and be like "well that was lame" but it was both of us, me feeling like I could hold us all together, overtax myself, etc and him being like "well this is nice" and following his own dream first. It can be hard for helper types to figure out what their own dream might be. I'm still figuring that out. - I see these things as coming in waves. I feel like I go through maybe 6 month periods of feeling hypercompetent (help everyone move, matchmaker, plan all the parties, whatever) and then 2-3 months down where if the phone doesn't ring I just sit at home and stare and think "wtf friends?!" but really it's an ebb and flow and if I can not take the down times as personal affronts -- the best thing you can do in these circumstances is not make it all about you -- then things cycle back. I also try to force myself to ask for things I want -- companionship, a ride to the airport, help moving boxes -- and am usually pleasantly surprised that people often want to help. That it's my own perspective of myself as the rock getting in the way of letting other people in and allowing them to help too. Your sister? She's just being a pain. You need to have the internal compass that tells you that and some way to let it roll off your back. When other people misbehave in many ways there really isn't anything you can do about it. Control freaks like myself and possibly you think you can fix these situations but often you can't, you can just control your responses (that's the AA/AlAnon talking, but there is good advice there). Responses? Well you can start by being a bit more honest with others. I definitely get people telling me from time to time "wow you have it all together" etc. I like to say "yes I do!" but it's not quite accurate. I usually tell those people that while I like my life, there are things missing that I wish I had (steady partner, career ambitions) and things I have that I worked my ass off at (relationships with family, network of friends) and things that I don't have/want that other people have or want (kids, big income, 26 inch waist) and it's all part of who I am. Other people have other awesome things about them and part of being a good person is letting them be awesome in your presence as well as using your own powers of awesomeness for good. Put another way: If you're so awesome why aren't you happier? See, we all still have work to do. I put this question to myself a different way: If you've got it together, why can't you lose ten pounds and get in shape? And I went after that particular self-improvement program with all the aggressive zeal that I put into everything else. Worked out okay too. It's all part of the curly hair/straight hair phenomenon; no matter what you have, in most cases there is something you want that you don't have. The trick is to understanding that you want it, in part specifically because you can't/don't have it. The other trick is to understanding the value of what you do have and finding your own balance between desire and satisfaction. You're a neat lady. Part of your troubles stem from thinking that you're not.

I love hazyjane's father's advice. Miss Lynnster, you are a fabulous person. Not just in an abstract, child-of-the-universe way, though that's true too, I mean you personally. I present you with a series of random thoughts; I don't have a coherent vision to present you this morning. You might like Leanne Franson's http://liliane.comicgenesis.com/d/20050910.html It's long, but I think you'll like Leanne. She talks about the exact opposite phenomenon. The friends who had helped her when she was poor and starving dropped her as soon as she became self-supporting and could return the favour. She no longer fit into the dynamic they were comfortable with. Leanne was as hurt by being dropped by these friends as you are about being taken for granted. When I was reading feminist women of colour literature in the eighties, a complaint came up over and over again. People would say, "Black women are so strong." It pisses black women off no end, because they aren't any stronger than anyone else. They just don't have a choice. A man I was working with on a project last year was my rock when I was working myself up into a tizzy. The whole team was exhausted, Richard as much as anyone, but he was always patient and even-tempered, never displaying fatigue. I once commented on it and his answer was, "I'm like a duck. There's not much happening on the surface, but just look below and you'll see the action." You could use that with people like your Arabic teacher as a way of making your point without throwing a fit. In your post you seem to be proposing being taken for granted and losing your temper as your two available choices. This is a false dichotomy, as I am sure you are aware. The middle ground is calmly saying No. As you have done with your mother. I have your problem in my home relationships. I say Yes to as many requests as possible, and I expect my partner to reciprocate. I only say No if I really can't (or really don't want to) so I expect that I will only hear No when I am making an impossible or unreasonable request. There are times when I suspect that I am getting No when all it means is "No, that's not what I was thinking," but on principle I treat it as "No, your request cannot be entertained." I don't argue or complain or cry, I just swallow it and move on. I mean, what else is there to do when it's not possible to have what you want? When I hear too many Nos and I am desperate to hear a Yes - I only ask for things I really really want, so I really do get desperate after a series of Nos - I have a tantrum. And my partner is completely stymied by this tantrum that appears out of nowhere. I need to learn to say No more often. Because I only ask for things I really really want, I assume other people do the same and I do my utmost to get it for them. But that's simply not true. People ask for all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. I don't have to get them for them. I need to learn to pursue the issue when I hear No the first time. If someone says No and is never challenged, of course they think it's ok to say No all the time. Why would they think otherwise? There's no need for me to sit and swallow a lot of Nos until I have a tantrum. I can say "Oh dear, that's a problem. I'm very disappointed." I had an ex who was completely draining. I realised - belatedly, after she had taken me for everything I had, including my job, my friends, my self-esteem and my books - that giving all you have to someone only works in a reciprocal arrangement when they can give you back what you need. You can't simply act on the assumption that someone can and will reciprocate. Many people can't or won't. So now I check first. It sounds like you're facing some of the same issues I am. You aren't alone.

Dear Lynn, wow. It took balls to write this post in AskMe with your username. Major respect. Though your question articulated exact thoughts and feelings of my own, I would have been terrified of being called whiny or at the receiving end of a barrage of misogynistic snarks. It's impressive the excellent and varied responses in this thread. The reality is that when I expressed feeling vulnerable or hurt in MetaFilter I received a lot of loving kindness and caring here, then worried if people were nice, giving or polite with me it was of pity. Damned ambivalence. I like MetaFilter for its rough irreverence, blunt honesty and its permission that bs -or any opinion- be hauled up for examination. Dissent and differences of opinion are okay here and not necessarily expressions of disloyalty or lack of friendship. I don't like mush and sloppy sentimentality when it comes to thinking about stuff but that doesn't stop me from enjoying caturdays, heaps of awws, playful childishness, gentle sillibiz, warm camaraderie and savoring the frivolous fun stuff of life and culture. I want it all, loving kindness, educated scepticism and analysis, real science, fun, warm friendship and blunt truth. It's surprised me that when I acted on wanting something, it is for the most part achievable with work and patience. Now I'm anxious that in responding to your post I'll be on the receiving end of "That's psychobabble." or " That's pop psych bs". Or just too many words...It may be. I hope I learn from others' opinions and even the snarks, *gets ready to duck tomato flinging*. Over the last 20 years I've given this topic you brought up lots of thought, years of therapy and emotional homework, since I once was a compulsive caretaker with lots of resentments and loneliness... and am still working on it in my own life to a much lesser, but still ongoing, extent. Many of the answers I came up with have already been stated here in this thread, including books that helped or transactional analysis. Another resource I like is for http://www.controllingparents.com/links.htm. http://www.barbarasher.com/tapes.htmby Barbara Sher. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006091565X/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships by Harriet Lerner. http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:c3cEK5CwyYwJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_lines+%22object+constancy%22+wikipedia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us. Additional thoughts are that: Women are socialized to feel their worth as a person from caring and caretaking. It can feel deeply satisfying being a competent and skillful caretaker. The danger is doing that to the abandonment of one's own needs and life. Also women tend to feel their worth in feeling cared about and others' willingness to be caring, as contrasted with the more historically male domain of being admired for achievements, events, possessions. Women's relationship with caring is both historic and hard-wired (http://www.pagetutor.com/jokebreak/images/female_brain.gif) (seriously, even if it's http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,937443,00.html). Healthy vs unhealthyhttp://www.advocatesforyouth.org/youth/health/relationships/healthy.htm. Healthy (for a child or disabled adult who is unable to care for themself or in dire need) vs http://www.promis.co.uk/content/chelp.php http://www.coping.org/control/caretaker.htm. Unhealthy caring means unconsciously choosing and being drawn towards emotionally unavailable people, men and women, as part of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetition_compulsion pattern from how one was parented. It's replicating patterns from the way one was treated by one's caretakers in childhood. Unhealthy http://www.innerbonding.com/index.lasso?did=content&content.article=175 is a way of abandoning oneself in favor of putting attention onto another person. If one has not been loved sufficiently well by either parent (even if they actually did their best under the circumstances) or been traumatized as a child, a person, most often female, may become unconsciously self-abandoning to one degree or another in adulthood. The unconscious signals are to others that "I'm here for you." and "Don't come too close, I'm okay, but you seem in need." At core I think the unconscious pattern or signal to others, when one is an unconscious caretaker, is a fear of intimacy, distrust, that others really aren't that trustworthy. Or that one isn't loveable enough. And with one's pattern of being attracted to the emotionally unavailable, not being cared for adequately and appropriately becomes a self perpetuating truth. So because of that, a mindset gets entrenched, at least I can be depended on and be valued for that. And then on that "I'm so dependable" island it feels damn lonely and then I end up feeling used. The "You're so strong." ends up feeling like others need me to be strong - for them and that I'm not allowed to be anything other than strong for them. No fun. People pleasing, not speaking one's truth and being repeatedly involved with people who are not appropriately considerate, is a type of dishonesty to others. Out of fear of confrontation, fear of hurting others with one's thoughts, feelings or needs, it deprives others of experiencing the truth of how one really is, thinks and feels. So others are seeing a false reality in one's people pleasing. Being honest with others is a gift of reality to them. Truth doesn't have to be a hunting license or a cudgel. Truth can be spoken with kindness and patience. Being truthful about one's feelings may be the brave act of being simply -or complexly- oneself, as one really is. Having needs is often shamed by others, especially people who are not considerate or are empathy-impaired, what I call limbically handicapped. Added to having a need for help or understanding, may be shame of expressing that need or the unspoken anger that one's needs haven't been met adequately in the past. So when the need is expressed, there may be a lot of fear and anxiety in the expression, which may not be especially inviting to others. There is some art to expressing one's needs. It takes practice. Possible antidotes and solutions: *Incrementally learning to ask for one's needs to be met in small but repeated amounts and braving the fear or the reality that comes with that change of pattern in oneself. *Learning to express vulnerability or having a need appropriately with well chosen others before it has crescendoed into a gigantic feeling of being Neglected. *Editing one's address book of people who are vampires and drainers. *Putting up a Wall of Pleasant -non-confrontational disconnecting- with people who one doesn't want to officially disconnect from but who are basically unable to reciprocate lovingly. *Learning to enjoy being valued by others in different ways than being needed by them...and the more difficult task of *Accepting that not being needed means one can still be valued and liked. *Asking for help from people who are likely to give it. *Cultivating friendships with people who are able to enjoy reciprocal giving.

I agree with wayward vagabond that there are "givers" and there are "takers" and, as a giver, you should surround yourself as much as possible with other givers. I'm a giver too, and this is why I choose my friends extremely carefully - because for me the meaning of friendship implies a lot of effort and support, and I'm not going to waste that effort on people who won't ever give back to me. I wonder whether you are a "healer idealist" INFP Kiersey type, as I am. Or if you are an extrovert, you could be an INFP "champion idealist" personality type. Reading about my type has helped me understand why I act as I do, nurturing my friends so much, and also potential problems that these tendencies could cause me and what I can do about them. In terms of romantic relationships, my father actually pointed out something that has been very useful - he told me that because I'm such a strong and independent woman, I tend to attract two types of boyfriends: those who are in some way weak and need to have someone to lean on, and those who are so independent themselves that they're happy to have a fairly distant relationship with someone who doesn't make a lot of demands. Neither of these "types" correspond with someone I'd like to settle down with in the long run, so it's very helpful for me to know about these tendencies so I can avoid getting involved with the wrong types of people right from the beginning. But secondly, little will she ever fathom that a big part of the reason I didn't create a family was because during the time period where I should've been concentrating on settling down I was busy putting our mother's well-being on a higher priority than my own. Seconding watsondog that if you didn't tell her this, you should. If you're surrounded by people whose natural instinct is to be "takers" then you have to be very direct when you need them to act as a "giver" in order to find out whether this is even possible for them. Some people might surprise you and "get it," others won't, but this is still important information to have.

were your parents by any chance addicts or disabled? because this is pretty standard-issue stuff for people with non-functioning parents. a person gets let down when they're young, then they make a life's career out of keeping other people from feeling let down. then they wonder why those people they're helping *keep letting them down, just like their parents*. ad infinitum. the thing is, we zero in on people who we sense will treat us the way we think we deserve to be treated. you may be volunteering to be let down in ways that you are not yet conscious of. this is classic therapy material. and maybe ACOA or Alanon? good luck, you sound like a very interesting and talented person.

So many people have offered up a lot of good advice. I think some of what prettypretty wrote really summed up some of what we see operating here: There are usually two things that come out in therapy (I'm sure there are others): (1) no one can do it as well as they can and (2) it's their job to do and if they can't do it, it's an admission of failure. Part of the reason I can write this (and possibly the reason that you've got some of the answers you have) is that it's fairly common . If you have friends who you're always there for, but who are never there for you -- take a step back. Does that typify your entire relationship with them (that you're always the one calling, setting up stuff, yada yadda) ? Even when you have explicitly told them, "hey, can you just let me vent here for a minute?" If so, that's a big red flag that they're not really your friends. You've taken up an almost parenting role with them - and that's not something you need. Distance yourself from people like that. Even though you may not be the eldest daughter, you're clearly the take-charge daughter, and really need to take a hard look at your relationships and life and see where, perhaps, you're stepping in to fix/help/save things before whoever it is, ieven attempts the work themselves - even if they don't do a perfect job, or make the choices you do. As someone who has some of these "white knight" tendencies, I recognize how easy it can be to swoop in and inadvertently set yourself up as the one calling the shots -- when instead, you should be the one giving advice to the one calling the shots. As far as relationships, I, like others, am wondering how communicative you are about your desires and needs. This is not to be accusatory, to just noting that sometimes people who pride themselves on being "the together one" often don't realize how much they haven't been saying, how much they were hoping someone else would pick up. If you don't ask, you don't get. It's interesting how essexjan characterized it - a fear of appearing needing, of expressing what she wants, lest she seem demanding. Think about that for a minute. Might it at all apply? I know that it has to me, and I've learned that I do nobody any good by sublimating my own needs. Pet your puppy, but call some of your good friends, and tell them you need to vent a bit. Go get a cup of coffee, and ask them to just let you talk.

Wow. I'm the Good Friend/Bad Friend Combo Pack! I'm the friend that never calls, forgets to answer your email, and may not be there for you when you need me, just because I haven't stayed in touch enough, and am never the type whom you can count on for regular (daily, or even weekly) heart-to-hearts. But, if you call me and we get together, I will listen for hours (really, really listen), I'll give you my most heartfelt advice after very, very seriously considering exactly your situation and everything I know about you. Or I'll just shut up and let you talk. I'll make you laugh - a lot, I'll cook you supper, make you tea, feed you cocktails, take you out and show you a great time; you'll be able to forget your problems, if only temporarily, and you will definitely feel much better when we part. That's because I really do care about you, and want to see this problem, whatever it is, resolved. Some problems can't be resolved, and I want to be an oasis where you can escape them for a while. BUT, I can't do this all the time, because if I do, I begin to lose myself. So I don't have lots and lots of friends I do this with, and the ones that I do have aren't ones who need it all the time. To be a good friend of mine, you must give me my space, forgive my bad phoning/emailing habits, have a good heart, an open mind, be fun and interesting to talk to... and someone whose life isn't a chain of hysterical crises punctuated by brief periods of unrealistic expectation. Also, you should loan me books. And even if you're all that, don't crowd me. Because I will absolutely disappear. And I know exactly why I'm this way. Early on, when I was much younger, I had a string of friends who I think of now as emotional succubi. I was left so drained, so exhausted and shaky, that I believe I came quite near having a breakdown. They weren't trying to get things like money or material goods from me - it was much more insidious... as though they wanted to consume my very life force, and they bitterly resented any time I didn't spend with them. I was the strong one, the wise one, the fun one, the fulcrum of of their social and emotional existence. When I realized how this pattern was unfolding, I determined to put a stop to it, and became a very different person. I became much more selfish with my time and my emotional expenditure, and grew very selective about my friends. When a friend who had been fun and seemingly emotionally secure would start becoming constantly needy and always wanting more from me, more and more time, more nurturing, more attention, I would firmly back right off, usually dropping that person unless they dramatically changed that line of pursuit. Cold? Yes, probably. I feel that way sometimes. I can be cold, but I'm also very, very warm and loving. For my own emotional wellbeing, I've learned that I need to sometimes turn both those taps on and off to protect myself. I don't hold this up as the model of emotional stability, but I will say that I can recommend the wisdom of judicious selfishness when you find that you are weaving yourself into a repetitive pattern of love and friendship that seems to suck out your soul without offering either the respite of no demands or expectations, or the simple shelter of a simple, calm, quiet, warm place in friendship where you can recover sometimes.

I was talking to a friend only yesterday about this very thing. We are both single, independent women coping with demanding jobs in a busy city, she runs her own business, I work in a job where I have to make important decisions which impact on people's lives, we're both trying to renovate our homes, dealing with everything on our own, and sometimes it's so very difficult to do. Example: The felt (shingle) on my shed roof is torn. I've bought a roll of felt, and the nails, and now all I need is someone to hold the ladder for me. I've asked three people if they can help me with this, and they've all kind of laughed it off that I can't do the job by myself. I need someone to hold the ladder, that's all! I had to let a so-called close friend of ten years standing go because, after supporting her through her separation and divorce, I found that every single conversation we had would be her talking about herself, never asking me how I was, even though in the past 18 months I've had to deal with the shock and grief of the sudden death of my boyfriend, followed by the discovery of a lump, several months of tests and the eventual removal of a breast tumour. The day my boyfriend died, I called her and left a message. Later that day she left a message for me, saying how sorry she was to hear that 'Bob' had died. His name was George. Last time I spoke to her, mid-January, I mentioned that I'd spent Christmas in the States. She said "you kept that quiet" and I thought (although I didn't say it, wish I had now) that maybe if she'd asked me what I was doing for Christmas when we spoke in December instead of yattering about herself for an hour she might have found out. I realised that I was a sounding-board for her and that she had no interest in my wishes or feelings as long as her own needs were being met. She went AWOL when I needed help and support from her in my times of crisis. People I know see me as the calm, capable person who doesn't get in a flap, who can be called on to give assistance at a moment's notice. My sister is the high-maintenance demanding type who's able to get her own way by using all the tricks that have worked for her all her life - being the giggly, pouty little girl. I do not know how to do that, even if I wanted to. Another example: I went to Canada with a friend a couple of years ago. We drove to the airport, parked at one of the long-stay car parks off site, where there were lots of other people parking up and going off to get the courtesy buses to the terminal. I opened up the boot of the car and my friend stood there looking all pathetic and saying "HOW am I going to carry this" (her case weighed about 3 times as much as mine, there were matching shoes & bag for every single outfit) and several men dropped what they were doing to lift her bag out of the car and carry it over to the bus. Meanwhile I hefted my own bag out and carried it myself. When the bus came, her bag was carried on for her, and at the terminal it was lifted off by one man while another went and found a trolley for her. Same thing at the Canadian end, and on the way home. I don't think she touched that bag once in transit, whereas I hauled my own without assistance. It's not that I'm incapable of carrying my own bag, but at one point, having observed how this worked for her, I tried the "oh, oh, this bag's so heavy" trick, batting my eyelashes and trying (obviously not very well) to look helpless and not one single person offered to help me. So (phew! sorry, this is so long), yes, I relate totally to what you say. I, too, like being a strong, capable, nurturing person, but, once in that role, it's very difficult for others to accept that I have needs and insecurities too, that I can't do everything by myself. Something I try to avoid is 'neediness'. I even find it difficult to acknowledge that I have needs, in case people see me as 'demanding'. As with the shed roof incident, when I let people know I need something, I don't get a positive response. Yet I see others who are (imo) excessively needy and demanding able to somehow end up with everyone running around trying to please them. WTF?! Some people are radiators, some are drains. I hope this q & a isn't flagged as chatfilter, because I think from the replies I've seen that it's touched a nerve.