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What degree of indepdence is appropriate for a long-term relationship / marriage?

  • What degree of indepdence is appropriate for a long-term relationship / marriage? Apologies for posting what may be vague and possibly unanswerable relationshipfilter, which normally I hate, but I need an outside point of view. My girlfriend and I had an argument about a (female, platonic) friend of mine, who we'll call E. She thinks E is flirting with me; I don't think so, but I accept that I am somewhat naive when it comes to women and their intentions, so I was willing to see her side of it. She asked me to cut off all contact with E (who is now in another country, so contact was the occasional email / chatty phonecall / facebook comment). I accepted this, and did so. The other night I mentioned E's name in conversation and she gave me a sour look and asked me to try not to mention E anymore. I objected since I didnt want to feel like I couldnt even mention her, but this led to a big discussion about whether it was appropriate, in the context of a serious and committed relationship, to have platonic friends of the opposite sex. She said she didnt think I should have any female friends. After a while, I said I would be willing to not have female friends, if thats what she wanted, but that I didnt want to feel controlled and pushed-around, and that giving up the freedom to pick my friends from both sexes kind of made me felt that way. (I'm not talking about any obviously sketchy behavior like staying out late and getting drunk with some girl -- f'rinstance I asked if she would have a problem with something along the lines of occasionally going for lunch with a female coworker, and she said yes, she would.) The issue basically came down to the degree of independence we each thought was right for a LTR. I acknowledge that being in a relationship involves giving up some freedom - you can't just go out and do whatever as if you were single. But I thought that in an ideal marriage both people should be whole, independent people who love and support each other but arent joined at the hip all the time. She said that being in a relationship was fundamentally about not being independent. I can see the logic in this but it just seems kind of extreme to me. She has sort of a black-white kind of personality and I'm more shades-of-gray. I've felt smothered in relationships with clingy girlfriends in the past and I guess that has a lot to do with my reluctance to start down this path. I don't really want to set a precedent that makes me feel that way, again. I've been up front about this from the beginning and tried to be as honest as possible. On the other hand, I wonder if maybe I'm just not ready to be in a committed relationship, if I feel smothered a lot. (Could have something to do with who I choose for girlfriends, also, but I dunno.) Also she's had problems with infidelity (both her father and her ex-fiancé), so that has a lot to do with her feelings. We weren't able to come to any kind of agreement on the matter. We are late 20s / early 30s. So basically, askme, I need some external advice. What do you feel is appropriate for a serious relationship / marriage? Is it reasonable to ask your mate to get rid of an opposite-sex friend you feel threatened by? Is it reasonable to ask them not to have any opposite sex friends? Am I right to feel pushed around, or is this what being in a committed relationship is like and should I realize that? Are we just not right for each other? Is this the kind of thing a couple can ever resolve?

  • Answer:

    Ack. Are we really still debating this? I guess maybe each generation that enters the relationship stage of their lives has to grapple with this, but lordy... It is absolutely and definitively unfair for any partner to try to eliminate, restrict, define or otherwise interfere with friendships. However, it is also the responsibility of each partner to make absolutely certain that no friendship becomes a point of confusion in the relationship. By confusion I mean situations that might make your partner uncomfortable with the level of intimacy (both physical and emotional) and degree to which this friendship might supercede the commitments of the partnership. That means that it is not okay for me to be jealous of or try to eliminate the friendship that my S.O. has with a woman he met online before he met me. She is an important person in his life, and he is very fond of her. It also means that he needs to make it clear to her (and everyone else, for that matter) that I am #1 in his life, and his commitment to me is primary. He has done that. I accept that she is a friend, that he ocassionally emails her, and has spoken to her by phone once when she was in a particularly awful personal crisis. He tells me about these things, although he is under no obligation to disclose each and every detail. He has other female friends, too. I've met several women he used to date. Each one has accepted me, and I them. It was very revealing to get to know the women he calls friends. It told me a lot about him. Bottom line - I trust him. I have my male friends, too. He's actually met a few of them, and knows that these guys have been 'enhanced friends' in the past. He is supremely confident in our relationship, and doesn't see my male friends as competition. (I guess it doesn't hurt that they helped us move into our new house! Any guy who will carry a sofa to help another guy can't be all bad, right?!) Bottom line - he trusts me. It's all about honesty, trust, commitment, and expectations. If you set your relationship expectations high, and insist that you be viewed as honest, trustworthy, and capable of serious commitment, and follow through with those behaviors - and expect the same behavior from your partner - you both should be able to find rich and rewarding friendships with each other, and that's the most important friendship of all.

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Could have something to do with who I choose for girlfriends, also, but I dunno. Your post says it all. These are the people you choose for mates. Why do you choose who you choose? It might help to quit analyzing her and concentrate on that for a while. Why are you choosing clingy, controlling, and jealous people for mates? Does this feel comfortable? Can you recognize the signs that someone will be this way? Perhaps they are choosing you? What is about you that telegraphs ease of manipulation? You realize that you are not going to change an adult female human's basic psychological makeup, right? She's had 20+ years to solidify into the person that she is and there are literally millions of transactions that brought that personality into being. As a self-admitted 'clueless' male, do you really think you're going to engineer her into an accepting, warm and trusting woman? If so, wear the 'clueless' logo with pride... you qualify as an optimist of a particularly rare variety. Successful relationships are those where the participants belong WITH each other, not TO each other. You are first and foremost, an independent entity.

FauxScot

http://ask.metafilter.com/68052/What-degree-of-indepdence-is-appropriate-for-a-longterm-relationship-marriage#1018732 may be right (hard to tell since we have no way of knowing if your girlfriend is temporarily being silly or if she is pathologically this way). Your girlfriend is sincerely insecure. Whether this is 100% her problem, or whether there are things you could (easily) be doing to make her feel more secure, what you have to do regardless is tell her that you are unwilling to continue down this path with somebody that won't even acknowledge they are being unreasonable. (It's the whole Dr Phil "you can't change what you don't acknowledge" cliche!) Just throwing another perspective into the mix, may not be popular but it's worked for me in similar situations. I would tell your girlfriend that for her benefit, you will stop hanging out with this particular friend (E), at this point in time, on the proviso that she admits she is being unreasonable and that she is going to have to gradually get used to you having friends, male and female. There's no reason why you can't comfort her for the time being, while her insecurities are still strong, if you can get her to admit this is controlling behaviour and that she has to work on it. Most people aren't complete lunatics, which is why this has worked for me before. But of course, this won't work if she is in complete denial. However, if you try this little experiment, and she fails, you will know you have to leave.

mjao

Her request for you to not have any female friends is, generally speaking, beyond the pale. While we all make allowances for people our SOs feel threatened by (recent exes, for instance, especially if they are, say, famous actors, porn stars, or people you've cheated with in the past [see: Carrie, Big, and Aidan]), these should be worked through with the idea that you both are moving towards a relationship in which those things are not an issue. There are people out there that will not ask this of you, and will in fact celebrate your relationships with other people, of all sexes.

wemayfreeze

I'm not going to disagree with most of what's been said here. Your girlfriend may in fact be insecure, insanely jealous, controlling, etc. However, you may want to reconsider the possibility that she's right about E. You know that saying, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." Is your relationship with E such that you can explain the situation to her and ask her whether your girlfriend is justified in being concerned? (And expect her to give you an honest answer?) Also, since you know how your girlfriend feels about E and know her established and perhaps justified issues with infidelity, why even bring E up? Were you trying to provoke the girlfriend, maybe? I think sometimes we subconsciously create crises in order to bring unresolved issues to the forefront, issues that we're particularly reluctant to deal with otherwise.

fuse theorem

Try not to focus on the fact that our answers today come to the consensus of "Yes, the way she feels is unjustified," and try to focus on the fact that you now need to find a way to fix this issue. mjao is on the right track, by giving you a course of action that may actually help resolve your girlfriend's feelings. This course of action's effectiveness comes from the fact that it is sensitive to the way your SO feels, and I cannot stress the importance of sensitivity enough. (Not that I'm implying that you have done or would do this, but) Throwing up your hands and saying "You're ridiculous! I've done nothing to deserve this!" does nothing to allay her fears, and thus does not register with her as anything other than criticism and alienation, when what you need to be doing is drawing her closer and making her feel more secure. It's her responsibility to learn not to be this way, but that doesn't mean that there aren't steps you can take to help her, so please go into this with the mindset that you Want To Help This Woman You Love (motivated out of desire to make her happy), not Want The Nagging To Stop (motivated out of annoyance and frustration). Positivity in that regard will go a long way.

lizzicide

cut her some slack if she's faced infidelity before, as you mention. She has to learn that she can trust you. Or, gosh, maybe she has to learn that her personal worth doesn't come from imposing ridiculous constraints on those she's with, or that a man may respect a woman who gives him freedom more than one who tries to take it away? Cut her some slack? Not seeing, talking to, or MENTIONING another woman? Slack? No, cut her all the way loose, and maybe she'll catch on that such behavior is not acceptable to anyone who's not a doormat. She needs therapy, medication, or a strong dose of cold water. Restricting others isn't the way to any kind of healthy relationship for either party. It's a great shortcut to high stress and disappointment, though. And if she's had "infidelity" problems before, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to guess why! Run, Sarge! Run!

rokusan

I don't disagree but there's still the possibility that there's more to this than what we here know, including the OP in that "we'. The girlfriend may have some knowledge about E or about the poster that justifiies her feelings. The poster may be obtuse about E's true intentions. E may be playing a long-shot; there might not always be a separation by country and the poster may not always be with the girlfriend. Perhaps the only reason the relationship was platonic is because the girlfriend--from's E's perspective--was "in the way". Even if E was the sluttiest, boyfriend stealing whore in the whole world, that doesn't justify the girlfriend's response. It shows a complete lack of trust on her part. Unless the OP is missing something out, he has done nothing to deserve this level of mistrust. The alcoholism analogy doesn't really work here, it would it he had an affair with E or if he'd asked her to give up a close male friend and then was flaunting his relationship with E in her face.... but from what the OP has said, that isnt the case. He's not indulging in something that she is denied and flaunting it at her. She's not the only person in the world who's been cheated on. Even if its happened multiple times.

missmagenta

I agree with everyone else, but please cut her some slack if she's faced infidelity before, as you mention. She has to learn that she can trust you. Yeah, she has to learn that she can trust you by being a petty dictator and seeing what kind of unreasonable demands she can get away with. Jesus, shut up. sergeant sandwich, this girl is trying to control you in the most repugnant way-- first it's contact with E, then it's all women. Soon it will be specific male friends and before you know it you'll have no friends, which is exactly what she wants because she wants you to be dependent on her.

Mayor Curley

It's funny, I was just thinking today, before I saw this question (I think it's somewhat relevant): if men and women can't be just friends - or in your case, if it's inappropriate, in the context of a serious and committed relationship, to have platonic friends of the opposite sex, because there's a potential threat there - what do bisexual people do? Do they get to have friends at all?

Ira.metafilter

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