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Commit or break up?

  • Shit a ring or get off the relationship pot? Warning: very long. Ok, I've read the previous 2 years of ask mefi questions tagged with 'love'. Most (not all) of those are about younger people or married people or they are 'who do I choose?' questions--not exactly my situation. I still need some outside perspective. I really appreciate it because I'm going crazy with indecision. Again, warning: long. I'm in a 2+ year relationship. We're in our mid-30s. We both want to start a family soon and get married and buy a house and settle down. The question is whether we should do that with each other. She has been ready to marry me for a year, but I am feeling unsure. She is feeling lots of biological clock pressure, which I am very sympathetic towards. There are many great things about the relationship, and, in general, it has gotten better and better over time. But I still have questions about it too. History: First year of the relationship: When we first started dating, I was depressed and just starting to try anti-depressants (which eventually worked) and had a lot of horribly stressful issues from work that lasted the whole year. We fought a lot. This was in part due to my depression and in part because she was raised in an insanely critical family and her parents never reliably protected her from others, including her siblings who hit her a lot. So she was/is incredibly sensitive and defensive (she's working on that with some real success, but it's an ingrained instinct). But there were plenty of good times, too. Second year: the relationship became cross-country long distance b/c I got a one-year job somewhere else and wasn't ready to propose, so she wasn't ready to move with me. I tried to break up with her 2 months after moving down, but she convinced me to stay together. Now: I have a new job in a different town, she did move with me to this small town, she wants a ring and a baby ASAP. She is in a hard situation. She gave up a lot to come here without a committment from me. I know that I'm extending this situation through my inaction, and I feel awful, and she is depressed and crying a lot, and we're in a new town and don't really know anyone. She did just get a job here, however, which should help her mood. Part of my point here is that the relationship was born in an unusually stressful and unsettled situation, and that might have helped prevent the blissful start that some relationships have. So far, we have not had any period that felt settled or permanent. The month before we moved to our current location, she was horrible and screamed at me a lot. In her calmer moments, she recognized this and attributed it to anxiety about leaving house, town, job, and family, and these issues were/are very real and reasonable. But I started to have doubts about us and at the end of the summer I asked her if she really wanted to come down with me. She said, 'I am not acting like myself. I think I'm having problems about leaving that are making me act crazy. I think these will pass. If you love me, yes, I want to come down with you.' I said, 'I do love you, but I don't know whether we are meant for each other long-term. I have some doubts about whether our issues can be solved. But I want this to work. If you want to come down to see how it works out, and try to solve our problems, I'm willing to try as hard as I can to do that.' I told her that if she needed more committment than that before she would come down, I understood. She decided to come and we are living together for the first time. Currently: The pros of the relationship: I love her. I can totally see building a comfortable life with her. We have the same social values, financial stability, general life goals, attitudes towards money, attitudes towards religion, taste in houses, enjoy talking about politics, same sense of humor, we can get along with each other's families, like each other's friends. I think we could work out any parenting issues. And, importantly, we are both willing to continue putting a lot of work into improving the relationship. Also, she is willing to prioritize my career over hers in terms of where we live, with some veto power for her, and I would obviously consider her opinion a lot. But she'd give up a job (she's a laywer) so I could get a better job for me. I'm in a field where moving up will require moving locations, so that's a very big deal for me. The cons: With some frequency, we get into petty arguments. Sometimes, things that should be easy and relaxing aren't. Sometimes I don't feel like she gets or responds to my emotions because she will continue pressing some stupid point even when I'm getting upset about it, and she sometimes feels that I don't understand her. We have different styles of communication and that can make things hard. We are both naturally dominant conversationally, so we sometimes feel like we're fighting for airtime. This has improved a LOT since the beginning, but it still sometimes nags at me. I feel (in a huge generalization/oversimplification) like a lot of couples have one dominant and one submissive person roles that make this sort of thing easier, but we each have trouble letting go sometimes. If we are disagreeing about where to go to dinner, neither of us cares a lot, and we don't want to fight, but we each wrestle with enjoying our preference and letting the other person get what they want. So this creates an annoying back-and-forth in which one says, 'where should we go for dinner' and the other says 'oh, we can do whatever you want' and the other says, 'well, how about X? do you want to go to X?' and then 'Well, I prefer Y, but X is fine' and then 'well, we don't have to go to X, we can go to Y' and then 'are you sure? X is ok' and then, 'well, I guess I do want to go to X' and then, 'but I am sort of in the mood for Y, I can't really find anything I like at X' and then 'what about dish Z? You'd like that' and then 'no, I don't like mushrooms' and then the argument starts. I let it go/give in a lot more often, but that creates some resentment over time. She frequently wrongly assumes that I'm criticizing her when I'm not (b/c of her family history) or that I'm upset about something just because I mention it, and I have to clarify my intentions a lot, but sometimes it comes too late and the argument has started. This has improved a lot over time but still happens when we're stressed. Also, I am much more sexual than she is (this has been consistent over the whole relationship), in terms of frequency, general touchy-feely affection, and simple open-mindedness towards enjoying sex. We do have sex and we both enjoy it, but frequency is off (1:3 ratio) and she has trouble doing any sexual things for me when she's not feeling it. Also, we have diferent dispositions. She's totally outdoorsy and I'm more domestic. When we disagree on what to do, she'd rather we each do our own thing independently and I'd rather compromise or take turns to find ways to do things together. We have found some sorts of compromise, but sometimes I feel like she wishes I were different. If I agree to go on a hike with her, she might get upset on the hike because I'm not enjoying it enough and that means that I may refuse to go on hikes in the future or that I'm not who she imagined that she would be with at this point in her life. I often point out that she is getting upset because of some speculative concern about the future rather than focusing on the here-and-now. She usually agrees upon reflection, but it's a chore to remind her that I don't suck because hikes aren't my favorite thing. Finally, I don't feel a strong passion or spark. Even though she tells me she feels passionate towards me, I don't often feel that from her. There are times when we're together that I do feel a sweet emotional bond, and sometimes when that goes a few days in a row, I start to work up the gumption to propose. But then she'll act in a very insensitive way and I'll retreat. To complicate things, I'm not sure I've ever felt a spark like that past my first relationship. I can't really tell if my feelings are just how I am at this stage in my life or if it means that I'm not really in love and should leave to try to find someone new. Maybe I'm rationalizing not having the spark, and it's actually a really important indicator. I can't tell at this point. It's also hard because she's having such a tough time right now that she's not at her maximum appeal. It's hard to feel passionately attracted to someone who's constantly crying. The macro/lifestyle things are all there, and some of the personal things are there, but some aren't. Some can be improved, and maybe some can't. We have done some counseling, and we are both in therapy--I've been in for a while and she just started a few weeks ago (she resisted for a long time). But I don't think the relationship will improve in the short term from its current state without me proposing because the longer things go on, the more stressed she becomes, and with good reason. Things are particularly hard now because she is really getting depressed and crying frequently. I feel awful about this. I have always been very honest with her regarding my feelings, so please don't beat me up for leading her on. (Reading some of the harsh answers to earlier questions was rough! Please remember that I am asking for help, not a smack in the face.) I also must admit a concern about finding someone else if we break up, because I can't really choose my geography due to my job, and I might stay in this small town where dating prospects are potentially slim. I need to decide very soon whether to propose or break up. I am feeling sad. This is not where I wanted to be at this point in my life. I always imagined that I would propose to someone I was madly and unquestionably in love with. Part of me thinks, if you don't feel ready, you aren't ready. But breaking up feels wrong (not morally, but wrong in my gut). I don't want to lose something that could be really good based on an unrealistic fantasy of what love is but I also don't want to settle for something if I won't be happy long-term. We are not a natural fit and the relationship is work. We are working on it and it is improving but I can't tell if it is supposed to be this hard. We have these petty fights or conflicts about every other day at this point. They used to last hours. Now they are often over quickly or we are able to prevent them from escalating. I care about her and don't want to lose that. She tells me that she thinks she is unconsciously holding back because she has not gotten a commitment from me. She says that sometimes she knows what I want but can't get herself to do it because she is trying to protect herself from being taken advantage of. She feels bad about this but is at the end of her rope and based on all of the factors, doesn't have more to give at this point. I believe these things are true. I believe that these areas will improve if I propose. If I propose, she will really want to get married and try to start a family very soon, because of the biological clock and her concerns about fertility (I know people can conceive later these days, but I don't want more information on that right now). This raises the stakes for me because I do not want my child to have divorced parents. Please help. Throwaway email: [email protected]

  • Answer:

    Oh dear. Look, this isn't me yelling at you. You sound like a nice guy. You also sound like a guy who let himself get emotionally blackmailed into a situation where he's now stuck between "Marry someone I don't want to marry" and "Dump someone fragile who changed her life to come with me because I told her I wanted her to come with me." I'm not going to be all AskMe Regular Flavor about this and let you off the hook completely and act like you're a huge victim here. I think you made a pretty serious error in not being 100% straight with her. (You're that couple where you say "I just don't know how much of a future we have", and she starts crying, and you panic and back down and reassure her that you have tons of future, tons! Right?) But you do not want to marry this woman. Almost nothing about your relationship that is currently difficult will magically improve when you get married. Yes, probably your girlfriend will feel safer and more secure. But you won't suddenly fall deeply in love with her, she won't suddenly want to have tons of sex, you'll still be bothered that you don't like to do the same things. Put it this way. Which of the following would you rather hear? 1) "I wasted my early thirties on you, you jerk!" 2) "I wasted my thirties and forties and fifties on you, and now we're stuck with each other for life - even if we go through with the divorce - because we have kids and a mortgage and a cabin by the lake. Thanks a lot." Neither of you are ancient. You're not each other's last chance. Someday you'll meet someone you really do want to marry, and you'll know without asking anyone for tips. You'll know.

anonymous at Ask.Metafilter.Com Visit the source

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I had my doubts about getting married. This is what settled it for me: I loved to come home to her. The idea of waking up without her made me sick. The most "beautiful" women in town did not make my heart flutter the way she did. We argued. We fought. We saw other people. I never stopped comparing all the other girls to her. Fifteen years later, we still argue from time to time. There are things about me she would still like to change, and that I would like to change too. There are things she does that make me grit my teeth, that I don't even mention to her any more, because there's no upside to it. Every morning I wake up with her and our children and I feel so blessed. Think about her walking out the door and never speaking to you again. Would it be a relief - or torture? If tonight she told you, "You know what? Changed my mind. I'm going to Paris. There's a guy there who appreciates me," what would you do? Would you lay down in front of her car in the driveway? Or would you mutter half-hearted regrets and sigh after the door closed behind her?

sacre_bleu

Never propose unless doing so is a complete no-brainer. I have to disagree with this -- I, and most people I know, had huge doubts and worries before taking such a big step. Even without some of the issues in the question above, it can be hard to be 100% sure about saying "I do." What if you meet someone better tomorrow? What if things don't work out and you get a divorce? What if it would be better to wait a year? These worries are not trivial, and are really, really normal. The key, I think, is figuring out which are real, substantive issues ("we fight all the time and that makes me unhappy") and which are not such a big deal at all ("what if aliens abduct me three decades from now?"). We are not a natural fit and the relationship is work. This, to me, is the key sentence in the entire question. I've had this relationship, and it lasted for years, and we probably argued every three days for that entire time. With the benefit of hindsight, two things are clear: One, we weren't making each other happy, and we should have broken up long before, because there was nothing so special in being together that warranted such unhappiness. Two, that it wasn't some deep incompatibility or lack of love that was causing the arguments -- it was our not having basic relationship skills like knowing how to resolve conflict, etc. I don't want to falsely claim that everything is perfect in my current relationship, but it emphatically feels like a partnership first and foremost; we have learned how to talk without arguing, and to argue without hurting. But these are learned skills, not some inherent awesomeness that only me and my partner have -- had I figured this stuff out years ago, I'd probably still be with that other person. Who knows, really -- all we have to go on here is a one-page description written by one party to the issue -- but I'm willing to bet that your situation is the same. You guys are really compatible, and you have a lot of affection for each other. But you are engaging in a cycle of behaviors that are causing great damage to your relationship. I am emphasizing the word "behaviors" because it is what you are doing, not who you are, that is causing the problem. It is easy for me to say (and much harder to be the person who has to actually do it) but what you need to do is to drastically change many of the things you do, and relearn how to be in a relationship. And really, I'm saying "you" singular -- you can't control what she does, but you can make sure that in every interaction, every day, every hour, you are taking the high road, and always doing things that make the relationship stronger instead of weaker. What you need to ask yourself -- before you open your mouth, before you decide what to do -- is "will this benefit or strengthen our partnership?" So instead of getting into a passive-aggressive argument about where to eat dinner, what would happen if you thought about it differently, as an opportunity to strengthen the relationship -- what if you focused on choosing the place that would make her happy, even if you have to eat something that you don't love? I don't mean that you need to always be the sacrificer, but rather part of making this work is changing the key word from "I" to "we" -- not, what will make me happy, but rather, what will make us happy? To summarize: If you aren't going to change any of your behaviors, you need to break up, because what you are doing now isn't making anyone happy, and doing more of it won't change the results. But if you do change your actions, you might find yourself getting different results, and you might find yourself with a pretty good relationship, worth a marriage and good for children.

Forktine

Let me edit your question. But I don't think the relationship will improve in the short term from its current state without me proposing HOLD ON. Do you think that proposing and marriage will improve the relationship all by itself? You know it won't. Proposing comes down, on your side, to "Do you want to get married to her?" If so, then commit and especially commit to solving the problems. But if you see proposing as the solution, and some elixir that will end the instability of your relationship, it ain't gonna happen. If you think she sees things that way, well, that's where you need to start talking. Keep in mind that any relationship, proposal or marriage certificate in hand notwithstanding, requires work. The crux of your problem seems to be a mismatch between your views on how much commitment and what kind is necessary in a relationship. Open up communication about that, but without some of the fraught implications of answering. I think you're both afraid to be honest with each other right now because you fear that if you are you'll lose what you have. But if you're able to have that honest, open conversation where you reveal to each other that you have incompatible visions of this relationship, well, then you've just freed each other up from spending more psychic energy trying to make the impossible work.

dhartung

I don't know what to tell you. But what we are all reacting to is that clearly, when you wrote this, you did not want to propose. So in that way, I think we are all telling you what you wanted to hear. But that's your fault, you laid things out that way. However, a lot of people ask me how being married is "different" from being in a relationship. [I got married years before most of my friends]. And I always say that it is different for me, a lot different. Being married made me feel safer, more grounded. We created "team us." Our relationship did nothing but get better, and "more real" once we got engaged and then married. And we were together and serious for three years before that happened. Getting engaged is not going to fix things. However, she has every right to feel insecure. And it is not unreasonable to think that some of your arguments will change once you put them in a new context of "we are in this together." Lastly, I'm not really sure that anyone you become involved with when you are depressed should be a long-term relationship. If you are like me, you were a different person when you were depressed. So now you are in a relationship that you selected for your depressed self. And your depressed self had different needs than you do now. This is my bias that I'm bringing in. But I truly think it is a good rule.

Mozzie

Anytime one forces the other into marriage to save the union, it won't work. The stress of planning a wedding alone and the enormity of the commitment breaks up many couples. Every friend of mine who got married because the woman said "marry me or it's over", and that's more than 10 couples, including myself, were divorced within 5 years. Marriage changes nothing, with the exception of allowing a gang of strangers into your personal finances and property issues should it not last; but some people need to get married before they can get divorced, for some reason, vs. breaking up. People will tolerate a dead romance for the sake of comfort (i.e., better the devil you know than the devil you don't, which is being alone after your history together and missing that intimacy, even if it's unpleasant). Marriage only compounds problems, adds debt, and in some states, takes up to a year to dissolve. It takes 3 days to marry in haste and miserable months to divide property and change identities. You can buy a house in one person's name and the other person can put all the utilities and bills in his/her name. Children can be born to an unmarried couple and take both names. Just understand that marriage is not something easily undone, and if you are feeling stress that might lead to a breakup, imagine how shitty it is when courts are involved. Trust me, if you are facing an ultimatum, it won't work. Love is NOT enough for a couple to stay together; it's a hell of a lot of work. I loved being a wife and feel as though I was put on earth to share my life with someone else; the man I married wanted a mother to take care of him and I assumed that he would become a husband after we married. People don't change like that, okay? Only age and experience can change you, or possibly therapy. If you don't feel like a husband now, taking that title will cause resentment. Just trust your gut... always.

Unicorn on the cob

I got married last December in a last ditch effort to "fix" a broken relationship. It is now 10 months later and we're filing for divorce. I can guarantee you that any doubts you're having now will be magnified tenfold after you've made it official. Get out now before the courts (and, heaven forbid, a CHILD) have to get involved. Yeah, it's going to hurt... but it's going to hurt a hell of a lot less now than it will later on down the line.

MiaWallace

It sounds to me like you think life with her would probably work out, but that you worry about certain wild cards you've seen (her occasionally "being horrible and screaming" at you, or deciding you're a bad person because you have different interests). I'd recommend you not override those doubts just because she wants you to propose now. It strikes me as odd that you feel like you need to make a decision for the two of you. Her urgency is ultimately her own crisis to resolve. I know, love is messy, but in an ideal world, I'd like to hear about her saying, "Hey anon, I'm freaking out about my biological clock and can't wait much longer. If we don't get committed in four months, I think I'll have to cut bait." The way I see it: you sincerely don't know what you want (and that's okay), and she wants you to know. Well, unfortunately, just because she wants you to know doesn't mean you suddenly you know. Maybe you should break this fact to her and gently put the ball in her court: "Betty, I know the pressure you feel about the future. But for me, now is not a good time to make a serious decision. The move has made things crazy. If we were to get engaged now, for me it'd be out of panic and chaos, rather than out of a solid love and readiness to make that permanent. I can't do it that way." "But I'm really worried about you crying so much. It is hard to see you so unhappy. What do you want to do? Do you want to stay and try to build a more stable life here? Or is it just too hard for you?" I'm not suggesting you become callous to her pain, just that you directly say "No, not now" so she can hear that and decide what to do about it. FYI, moving is very hard, and moving to be with someone (what she did) can create exactly this desperation you describe, even without the biological clock issues. It's not your fault, it's just the way the world works. I'd try to get your lives more stable before making a decision.

salvia

Never propose unless doing so is a complete no-brainer. Same goes for making children.

flabdablet

Get off the relationship pot. You sound more like you want out of this relationship than you want in it. Also, thinking that things will improve if you propose is a bad bet in my book.

Squee

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