Who were the original illegal immigrants from a historical perspective?

Why is it difficult for immigrants to get reasonable jobs in Nordic countries?

  • I know this may sound like a sensitive question for some people, but please try to understand where I'm going with this question. I have been and lived in many Scandinavian countries and according to my studies many immigrants from both Western and developing countries face discrimination when they look for work, yet the authorities of Denmark, Norway, Finland and Iceland talk about integration at the same time. I have seen men and women from other countries, living in Scandinavia who have Doctor Degrees, Masters Degrees etc. but they still drive taxis, do jobs, which the skilled ordinary citizens of these countries wouldn't do. The only Nordic country, which is giving immigrants opportunities to be what they can be in life without facing all forms of bureaucracy is Sweden. On the other side they have difficulties socializing with their newcomers;how can they have a successful integration and assimilation policies, if the authorities from those countries can't see eye to eye and conclude that what they have done is not working? I know that newcomers have responsibilities too, but there are those who are making efforts and they're being ignored. My perception is that most Scandinavian countries are not experienced at integrating their newcomers compare to countries like France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, the U.S., Britiain, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Australia,New Zealand, Switzerland,Belgium,Canada etc. Please don't get offended when I'm saying this; it is just my perception, and I have this perception because the countries that I have mentioned have had some forms of experience with other cultures or had colonies a long time ago and that may play an important role their integration policies. I have myself experienced it first hand, my family has experienced it first hand too. Please tell me what you think and let me know what are the reasons behind this, if you at it in a sociological perspective.

  • Answer:

    I suspect you're right, and the reason can't be too difficult... these are essentially tribal countries - tribes with flags. They are small and very homogeneous populations. Like you said, most of them didn't have colonies, don't have experience with other people, etc. Also the percentage of immigrants is fairly high, and some of the people feel they are losing their culture, being overwhelmed, etc. - these are not immigrant societies like those in north and south America, or Australia, New Zealand... these are lands that have always been settled and owned by one tribe... Norwegians, Danes, Finns, etc., and I don't think other European countries are all that different. If I were you (assuming you have a graduate degree, high skills, etc.), I'd try to move to the UK or US, Canada, Australia, etc. - I think your opportunities will be better. I wouldn't even bother with the other countries on your list - I think they all have greater problems than Canada especially. Maybe Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands are OK. Don't waste your time trying to understand Scandinavian countries - they obviously accepted more immigrants than they can handle, and now they want to blame the immigrants for not assimilating, when in fact they don't make it easy to. How come immigrants have no problem assimilating in English-speaking countries? Don't stay where you're not wanted - go where there is opportunity. Here in the US there are so many recent immigrants from India, China, Muslim countries, etc. - they're all doing fine. Well, it depends on their skill set too.... doctors, computer scientists, etc. do fine. Good luck!

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Simple. The government might say it wants immigration, but the people do not welcome it.

Dawn W

You definitely have a point, and luckily it is something that is being focused on now - to make it easier for foreign diplomas and work experience to be officially accepted. and to make it easier for skilled workers to obtain work and residence permits. It's late in coming, but it should be a win-win situation for both the Danish companies who have been struggling against the red-tape to bring in the skilled workers they need, and for the overqualified foreigners already here that can fill many of the empty positions. Hopefully, this will get easier over the next couple of years, as they make the system more "user friendly" - that is, if they succeed in doing so. I'm hoping for the best, but not holding my breath. I would also like to see more programs aimed at integrating immigrants into the Danish culture and communities. There are some, but I feel that many would benefit from something more organized, known and easily available. From a sociological perspective, for Denmark at least, I think it's a combination. In the more recent years, when Denmark began importing foreign workers in the 60s and 70s, there was little experience with integration. When my mother came here, there were no language classes, no support system, it was really a "swim or drown" situation - this then resulted in poor integration for many and to some degree a misuse of the system, which I believe then directly or indirectly resulted in all the red tape, rules, regulations, and obligatory language lessons (for non-EU citizens) that you see today. Other countries have had more time and experience to try and work out the balance, although there are still issues there as well. But yes, as you say...it goes both ways, the immigrant must make an effort as well, and unfortunately a few don't or they are completely taken aback at what sort of effort it requires, which then results in resentment or simply giving up. Especially the language issue seems to be a huge problem. On the other hand, I know many immigrants who gritted their teeth and pushed on, and who are now doing well. I have been an expat myself in Switzerland (and no, it is certainly not easy there either), so I know first hand how hard it can be. My advantage was that I had no illusions about integration because I grew up surrounded by both Danes and expats in Denmark, so I had a pretty good idea of just how difficult it would be and what it would take. Still, it took me 4-5 years before I felt integrated. And no... I did not find a job, but started up my own company instead. As for assimilation... I don't believe it is necessary. Integration yes, cultural understanding and mutual respect, yes, but not assimilation.

Voelven

For family reunification and asylum cases: The primary reason for this in Norway is the lack of language skills. A second factor is that sometimes the papers the immigrant brings with them aren't sufficient to prove their education. There is a degree of racism, but that would be a tertiary issue. It has nothing at all to do with bureaucracy, however. Asylum seekers get free language courses and so does family reunification, I believe. Asylum seekers also have to take part in an integration programme. This can't happen in other situations obviously, since one would have to be a skilled worker if they come from a non-EU/Schengen country. If you want to go on pure anecdotal stories, there's dozens upon dozens of stories of immigrants who have successfully integrated and have nothing but glowing stories of the immigration process (a simple google news search will show this, Norwegian only of course). I am willing to guess it's this story you've read: http://www.utrop.no/Nyheter/Innenriks/22254 and that's the one that hits the racist aspect. But if you look at actual statistics, 8 of 10 immigrants feel they are integrated in Norway and nearly all feel like they belong (and the article talks about how facts so often disappear from these kinds of debates, and addresses myths and the facts of immigraiont): http://www.rettvenstre.no/?p=2617 I do believe Norway is doing the best they can to reach the other 20%. The asylum programme in particular is always going through revision.

RWgirl

Here is a perspective from a 8th generation Canadian. My family has been living in Canada since 1801, over 200 years. The main problem here, for Immigrants, is their language ability, in either English or French. Those who come here from nations where the working language is NOT English, have a harder time than those that speak it very well. It is great to have a Doctoral degree, but if you can't read, write and speak one of our languages, at a University level, you aren't going to be accredited here. That explains the taxi drivers and parking lot attendants who are working for minimum wages. They can't communicate well enough, either in speaking or writing. A second problem is the "attitude " of the individual Immigrants. I find that many of the ones from India, who are well educated have an unfortunate habit of thinking that they are still in "india ". By that I mean that they feel that they should be granted special treatment, and be regarded as being a high level caste member, even though Canada has no such system, and never has had one. being told that "In India we had many servants in our home " does not impress most people in Canada, and may result in a reply. such as "why did you leave India, if your life here is so bad " ? Canadians are nice people, but we get a bit upset when we hear such comments, on a regular basis. The other common complaint here is that we are being asked by the newcomers, to change our society, and even our laws, to accommodate THEM. A case in point.... A Muslim mosque group buys a former christian church building in downtown Toronto, on a residential street. In the past, the church was only used on Sunday, for a few hours. NOW the mosque's members are there five times a day, every day, to pray and gather. The surrounding streets are jam packed with cars and commercial trucks, all day long, creating a major traffic problem and sometimes the street is completely blocked, so that no traffic can get through it. The neighbors rightly complain to their city council members, who ask the city Police to ticket the offending vehicles. The Mosques leaders say that they are being unfairly targeted by Police , who have towed some cars that were blocking the street completely. This is only one example of a situation where a cultural face off is creating bad feelings. Many Canadians feel that we are being forced to make changes, that we don`t want to make, in the interests of `keeping things peace full `. It seem that all of the accommodations `are being made by us not the newcomers. Jim B Toronto.

Jim B

I haven't been here for very long, but just my two cents, as a recent immigrant to Iceland: so far everyone's been extremely nice and helpful to me. Of course, I'm doing my best to assimilate as much as possible. Hopefully I'll eventually get this language issue out of the way :)

Nafnlaus

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