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I'd say it is quite likely. I personally know several mathematicians and mathematics students who would have trouble solving some of the IMO problems. At least by using elementary means. There are some IMO tricks (especially in combinatorics, like double counting) which are used a lot by research mathematicians working in some particular areas. So they wont have much trouble in solving those IMO problems. But I doubt that someone working in algebraic geometry would be able to solve all the inequality problems appearing in IMO.

Regarding your second question, I personally don't have any fear of

I'd say it is quite likely. I personally know several mathematicians and mathematics students who would have trouble solving some of the IMO problems. At least by using elementary means. There are some IMO tricks (especially in combinatorics, like double counting) which are used a lot by research mathematicians working in some particular areas. So they wont have much trouble in solving those IMO problems. But I doubt that someone working in algebraic geometry would be able to solve all the inequality problems appearing in IMO.

Regarding your second question, I personally don't have any fear of not being able to do something that "a high-school student could". That statement sounds quite absurd to me. There are several things that a high school student could but I can't do and vice versa. In either direction it's just not that big a deal. Moreover, research maths is not a competition. People develop an expertise in a particular area by years and years of preparation and then collaborate with each other to further develop the field of mathematics.

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When I was in high school, I used to participate in a different kind of math competition(with a different scope). I really enjoyed that and I was not too bad at it. I’m sure, that I could’ve done better, but I never explicitly practiced for it. There are some methods one can train, to become better at solving maths problems. There are strategies, certain theorems/tricks/… one can memorize, so you have a tool box to tackle the problems. So, if you never prepared for such competitions, you most likely do not have a tool box ready. Could be, that you have the necessary knowledge somewhere hidden

When I was in high school, I used to participate in a different kind of math competition(with a different scope). I really enjoyed that and I was not too bad at it. I’m sure, that I could’ve done better, but I never explicitly practiced for it. There are some methods one can train, to become better at solving maths problems. There are strategies, certain theorems/tricks/… one can memorize, so you have a tool box to tackle the problems. So, if you never prepared for such competitions, you most likely do not have a tool box ready. Could be, that you have the necessary knowledge somewhere hidden in your brain. Could be, that you have not, if your maths studies have a different scope. In the first case, you will find the solution in some amount of time, in the second case, you will not(without looking stuff up).

Does that make you a bad mathematics student? No, absolutely not.

I never feel embarrassed, if I can’t solve a problem. Sometimes, I just think to complicated. I once was absolutely sure, that the high school student I tutored, was not able to solve a problem, because he hadn’t the necessary knowledge. I was sure, that you would need calculus to solve the problem. In the end, you needn’t. I just forgot about something, every (german) high school student is taught, which is not really relevant later on.

When I had a problem, solving differential equations(we were only taught the theory, and had to figure out how that works in practice on our own time), I asked an engineer student for help. Not because he was better at maths than me, but because he was better at calculating than me.

Somehow, people think, that someone who is good at maths, has to know everything. But that is extremly rarely the case. It is like saying, that someone who is a good football goal keeper, must also be a good striker.

High school maths is different than “real maths”, maths competitions are different then research, every field of maths require different skill sets.

No, I can’t solve everything spontanously, no I don’t feel ashamed about it.

(I looked at the IMO 2014 problems. I would be screwed without preparation.)

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What is a mathematics student? If that is taken to mean undergrad math majors, then it is almost 100% sure that the average math student cannot solve any IMO problems. The IMO competition has evolved over the years to a very high level. The participants are among the most talented and best trained young mathematicians of the planet. Many of them go on to brilliant scientific careers.

Also (this is a minor issue) the problems officially can be on "pre-college" mathematics, so e.g., methods depending on limits are ruled out. Most of the problems are on elementary number theory, combinatorics, e

What is a mathematics student? If that is taken to mean undergrad math majors, then it is almost 100% sure that the average math student cannot solve any IMO problems. The IMO competition has evolved over the years to a very high level. The participants are among the most talented and best trained young mathematicians of the planet. Many of them go on to brilliant scientific careers.

Also (this is a minor issue) the problems officially can be on "pre-college" mathematics, so e.g., methods depending on limits are ruled out. Most of the problems are on elementary number theory, combinatorics, elementary geometry. Special training in these disciplines helps, as does knowledge of tricks and patterns of IMO questions.

About the last question: mathematics is not a competitive sport. We are not in this business so that we have improved self-esteem: we simply want to learn more and work. Not all of us have the same talent, resources or luck. But we can all try to be curious and dedicated.

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It is said that in 1988 (Australia), during problem selection, one of the problems was so hard that several of the top number theorists in Australia failed to solve it. However, they put it on the exam anyway, and multiple IMO contestants received a perfect score on that problem.

You can view the problem here: 1988 IMO Problems/Problem 6

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The International Mathematical Olympiad (IMO) is an extremely challenging competition aimed at high school students, and the problems are designed to test deep problem-solving skills and creativity in mathematics. Here are a few key points regarding a mathematics student, particularly someone with a Ph.D., and their ability to solve IMO problems:

  1. Skill Level: While a mathematics Ph.D. has a high level of expertise in mathematics, the specific skills required for IMO problems may not align with their research focus. Ph.D. students often specialize in areas like pure mathematics, applied mathemat

The International Mathematical Olympiad (IMO) is an extremely challenging competition aimed at high school students, and the problems are designed to test deep problem-solving skills and creativity in mathematics. Here are a few key points regarding a mathematics student, particularly someone with a Ph.D., and their ability to solve IMO problems:

  1. Skill Level: While a mathematics Ph.D. has a high level of expertise in mathematics, the specific skills required for IMO problems may not align with their research focus. Ph.D. students often specialize in areas like pure mathematics, applied mathematics, or theoretical aspects that may not directly relate to the types of problems posed in the IMO.
  2. Problem-Solving Approach: IMO problems often require innovative and non-standard approaches. Even experienced mathematicians may struggle with these types of problems if they are not familiar with the techniques and strategies commonly used in olympiad-style mathematics.
  3. Fear of Embarrassment: There can indeed be a sense of embarrassment for a math Ph.D. who cannot solve problems that high school students can. This stems from societal expectations regarding expertise in mathematics. However, the mathematical community generally recognizes that different areas of mathematics require different skills, and not being able to solve IMO problems does not diminish one’s qualifications or abilities in their area of specialization.
  4. Perspective on Competitions: Many mathematicians view competitions like the IMO as a unique challenge rather than a benchmark for overall mathematical ability. They may appreciate the creativity and ingenuity involved in solving these problems, even if they find them difficult.
  5. Cultural Context: In some academic circles, there is a culture of valuing competition and performance, which can amplify feelings of inadequacy. However, many in the field understand that mathematics is vast, and expertise is often highly specialized.

In summary, while it is possible for a mathematics Ph.D. to struggle with IMO problems, it is important to recognize that this does not reflect a lack of mathematical ability. The skills required for olympiad problems are distinct and may not align with the expertise developed during a Ph.D. program.

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I do not think that they do not have the abilities to solve it, it is just that the problems are put in difficult scenarios and are presented in a twisted manner. As a former participant in the IMO, I can relate to this. After the test, the problems were solved by me, given that I had time and I found that I could solve within what I had prepared/learned. So in short, the difficult scenarios and the presentation in a twisted manners plus the weight of time makes it difficult to focus on hard problems. Thus a mathematics student could do the IMO, he would just have to solve problems by intuitio

I do not think that they do not have the abilities to solve it, it is just that the problems are put in difficult scenarios and are presented in a twisted manner. As a former participant in the IMO, I can relate to this. After the test, the problems were solved by me, given that I had time and I found that I could solve within what I had prepared/learned. So in short, the difficult scenarios and the presentation in a twisted manners plus the weight of time makes it difficult to focus on hard problems. Thus a mathematics student could do the IMO, he would just have to solve problems by intuition and thinking, something which is developed in the research math field.

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I didn't do many math competitions before college. While I was at Caltech, I took the Putnam twice. I was too embarrassed to actually go get my score, but my best guess that each time I probably got 1 problem (out of 12). In some of the hardest years, the median score is 0.

So yes, doing competition problems takes a lot of specialized practice, and it's generally considered a poor indicator of success in math research.

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If I remember correctly, "The Art of Problem Solving" by Terrence Tao goes through the solution of an IMO number theory problem and also describes how several professional number theorists tried and failed to solve it. This might be the same problem Brian Bi is referring to.

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I'd say quite high.

It isn't that the problems are difficult, its just that they are broad. Maths is a huge field. For example if you are a specialist in Abstract Algebra, you can be poor at trigonometry say.

I teach mathematics at high school, and I am certainly capable of solving all the problems, but probably not straight off.
I would have to train for them. Very often I have to revise stuff I haven't used for a few years.
I have to do the equivilent of a college maths course/ freshman year at university every year just to keep in touch.

One of the hardest things to teach about Mathematics i

I'd say quite high.

It isn't that the problems are difficult, its just that they are broad. Maths is a huge field. For example if you are a specialist in Abstract Algebra, you can be poor at trigonometry say.

I teach mathematics at high school, and I am certainly capable of solving all the problems, but probably not straight off.
I would have to train for them. Very often I have to revise stuff I haven't used for a few years.
I have to do the equivilent of a college maths course/ freshman year at university every year just to keep in touch.

One of the hardest things to teach about Mathematics is that being wrong is not a problem.
The whole point is I will look at the problems posed and make a reasonable attempt, some can really only be solved by understanding a specific piece of data, which is memory recall, not Mathematics.
I'd say if I sat the IMO with my students I wouldn't always get the best score, however if money depended on it and I had a chance to train (only a couple of days), I would win every time.
I have absolutely no embarrassment about being wrong, in fact I'd say the opposite was true. If you are never wrong you aren't trying.

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I have a Bachelors in Mathematics /w honors and a 4.0 GPA.

And I would be surprised if I could solve any of the IMO problems.

Why? Even though I have taken Calculus, Differential Equations, Abstract Algebra, Number Theory, Combinatorics, and more, those problems are not in my wheel house. Since I graduated, I have been moving more towards my interests for my doctorate. Which means that I gradually forgetting most of what I have already learned.

IMO problems are both very, very hard and very specialized.

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I was a member of my math team/league way … too many years ago.

How likely is it that a mathematics student can't solve IMO problems? Is there a fear of embarrassment in being a math Ph.D. who can't solve problems that high-school students can?

Very. As in, figure that you might have multiple classes, multiple grade levels, each of 25–30 students, and maybe you’d have 20–30 people who’d maybe be a part of this and among those, perhaps a dozen who could actually do well enough to place locally (not all at once, of course), and then only a few out of your region that could place well regionally, a

I was a member of my math team/league way … too many years ago.

How likely is it that a mathematics student can't solve IMO problems? Is there a fear of embarrassment in being a math Ph.D. who can't solve problems that high-school students can?

Very. As in, figure that you might have multiple classes, multiple grade levels, each of 25–30 students, and maybe you’d have 20–30 people who’d maybe be a part of this and among those, perhaps a dozen who could actually do well enough to place locally (not all at once, of course), and then only a few out of your region that could place well regionally, and you’ll get an example how it might be.

Oh, sure, there’s the standard demographics, financial, and peer pressure reasons to not even be a part of this, but I know first hand that the competition is intense, and the questions are *hard*.

Think of it in terms of a final exam, and how a given class might do performance-wise on that.

> how far removed are problems at math contests like IMO from problems that college and graduate students are faced with?

Probably on par, or differently provisioned. The questions at competitions are intended to extract answers that are derived beyond the expectation of rote memorization and plugging in formulas. They’re definitely at or above the level one would learn at a high school math class.

> It seems like the tricks and techniques used to solve competition problems is very specific to competition problems, and not research math. Is this correct?

Maybe, but being able to tackle problems via different tricks and techniques isn’t a negative. Problem solving is better when you’ve solved other problems.

> is there some fear of embarrassment in being a math Ph.D. who couldn't solve problems that high-school students could?

If a math Ph.D. is having this concern, I’d be interested to know why. Math is diverse. If IMO questions aren’t relevant, then there’s no concern if they can’t be solved.

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I hope not. Because I have definitely gotten some math problems from my daughter’s 6th grade class “wrong.”

Ok, ok, I put “wrong” in quotes. See? I did it again. Why?

Because the problems I get wrong are the ones that either rely on definitions that no one uses in real life, are based on definitions that are vague, or are ill-posed questions.

Let me give you an example from way back in 2nd grade of what I mean by a bad definition. One day my daughter was asked to identify the “lines of symmetry” of a set of shapes, where “lines of symmetry divide the shape into two parts that are the same.” (Edit

I hope not. Because I have definitely gotten some math problems from my daughter’s 6th grade class “wrong.”

Ok, ok, I put “wrong” in quotes. See? I did it again. Why?

Because the problems I get wrong are the ones that either rely on definitions that no one uses in real life, are based on definitions that are vague, or are ill-posed questions.

Let me give you an example from way back in 2nd grade of what I mean by a bad definition. One day my daughter was asked to identify the “lines of symmetry” of a set of shapes, where “lines of symmetry divide the shape into two parts that are the same.” (Edit: expanded the range of the quotation marks for clarity) So, for example, the dotted lines below are each lines of symmetry of the square:

Meanwhile, here are the lines of symmetry of a rectangle according to the 2nd grade class:

Can you spot the problem?

The diagonals of a rectangle also divide a rectangle into two parts “that are the same” — specifically they are congruent. So the diagonals should also be lines of symmetry, according to the definition used.

It turns out, the whole time the school meant “lines of mirror symmetry.”

So it is, in fact, quite easy for a mathematician (or in my case, a theoretical physicist) to get the wrong answer on even a 2nd grade math problem. I feel no shame about this at all. This actually happens fairly often - often enough that her 6th grade teacher has asked me, essentially, to stop looking at her homework. I haven’t yet decided if I will.

EDIT: P.S. As pointed out in the comments, all lines through the center of rectangle divide it into two congruent parts. I am aware of this but didn’t want to overcomplicate the answer.

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Well, try your hands on *this* one.

[Translation: Five-star difficulty; Find the area of the shaded region (units are given in cm); 6th graders, five star difficulty]

This is one of the problems that once got famous in China as ‘elementary school problems’. Another one, e.g. is a Diophantine equation involving cubic curves which ‎Alon Amit (אלון עמית)‎ once analyzed.

(It is suspected that the downleft corner has an area unshaded by mistake.)

Well, try your hands on *this* one.

[Translation: Five-star difficulty; Find the area of the shaded region (units are given in cm); 6th graders, five star difficulty]

This is one of the problems that once got famous in China as ‘elementary school problems’. Another one, e.g. is a Diophantine equation involving cubic curves which ‎Alon Amit (אלון עמית)‎ once analyzed.

(It is suspected that the downleft corner has an area unshaded by mistake.)

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Of course. That’s the point of them being math Olympiad problems: they are very challenging.

Perhaps the assumption is that a challenging problem for a high school student must be a walk in the park for a graduate student, or a Ph.D. holder, or a mathematician in an academic position. This isn’t so. Problem solving is an important part of math research, but it’s not quite the same kind as Olympiad problem solving, and earning a Ph.D. in math takes skills and dedication of a different character.

Some mathematicians enjoy Olympiad-style problem solving and can handle many Olympiad problems faster

Of course. That’s the point of them being math Olympiad problems: they are very challenging.

Perhaps the assumption is that a challenging problem for a high school student must be a walk in the park for a graduate student, or a Ph.D. holder, or a mathematician in an academic position. This isn’t so. Problem solving is an important part of math research, but it’s not quite the same kind as Olympiad problem solving, and earning a Ph.D. in math takes skills and dedication of a different character.

Some mathematicians enjoy Olympiad-style problem solving and can handle many Olympiad problems faster than you or me, but many don’t, and even the best of them may not be able to earn top scores at a recent IMO. The kids who participate at the IMO are deeply immersed in this style of problems, they are well trained, and they have just the right type of smarts for this challenge: creative structuring of strategies, blazing fast assessment of different ideas and directions to pursue, tenacity, imagination and a keen sense of abstract analogies.

All of these things are useful for math research in general, but Ph.D. students don’t have to be as crazy athletic at them as the Olympiad kids are. By way of analogy, think how well most professional sportspeople – say, NBA players – would do at the majority of summer Olympics events – say, artistic gymnastics.


(…)

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Anonymous

It actually depends on th student! It depends on the way the student has been eposed to concepts and to various problems. It depends on the way a student has developed to attempt a particular problem. If student is has quality enough to reach the imo .. he/she sure has something in him/her to crack atleast a question there.. given that they have been through rigorous training

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Yes, of course it does.

If you’ve reached the point where you can routinely solve a good portion of the problems on the International Math Olympiad, then you’ve mastered a pretty deep creative skill. When you look at an IMO problem, you don’t feel as mystified or mortified as you once were. You’re not confused. You have ideas, you have approaches, you’re comfortable, even excited.

You now know what problem solving is like. You know the common initial feeling of “ok I have no idea where to even start”, and you’re not afraid of it. You know the common feeling of “wait, this can’t be true…”, and yo

Yes, of course it does.

If you’ve reached the point where you can routinely solve a good portion of the problems on the International Math Olympiad, then you’ve mastered a pretty deep creative skill. When you look at an IMO problem, you don’t feel as mystified or mortified as you once were. You’re not confused. You have ideas, you have approaches, you’re comfortable, even excited.

You now know what problem solving is like. You know the common initial feeling of “ok I have no idea where to even start”, and you’re not afraid of it. You know the common feeling of “wait, this can’t be true…”, and you know how it breeds understanding when you think about it more. You know you may need to try sixteen different approaches before you hit the right path, and you’re not afraid of that either. You have a reflex to pursue analogies, however vague. You instinctively look for small, simpler steps to start with, or for ways to break the problem into more manageable chunks. You know how to backtrack when you hit a wall, and try a different way. You do these things easily, almost unconsciously. You’re a confident problem-solver.

You’ll do the same things when confronted with a challenge outside of math, even very far from math. You may be writing a poem and hitting a dead end with the rhyming structure. You may need to deliver a presentation in 24 hours and don’t even have a draft. You may have forgotten to call your mom on her birthday. You may be unsure which job offer to pick. You may have lost your car keys. You may have lost your love.

The confidence you’ve built in knowing that you can solve seemingly unsolvable problems will serve you well in those cases. Specific strategies will often be surprisingly applicable. Your skills of abstraction will delight even you. Your ability to frame a coherent argument will be an asset. You may find yourselves solving real-life problems that seem insurmountable.

And, of course, your IMO solving prowess will thoroughly impress your love interest.


At the risk of stating the obvious: Learning to solve IMO-level problems is far from the only way to acquire those skills, and not necessarily the best way for you or anyone you know. Do it if you’re attracted by it, but don’t force yourself to learn math just because someone on the internet said it will help you in life.

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The way they teach math today is completely confusing and unintuitive. When I was in my MD/PhD program, a friend from graduate school showed us her daughter's homework. Two MD/PhD students and a PhD student couldn't figure out any of the problems, and all of us were doing quantitative research at the time. The definitions they use these days don't match the mathematical definitions you use in mathematics, and I can't imagine these children learning the real definition of the words in later mathematics courses without a lot of difficulty changing their way of thinking about a word that was dril

The way they teach math today is completely confusing and unintuitive. When I was in my MD/PhD program, a friend from graduate school showed us her daughter's homework. Two MD/PhD students and a PhD student couldn't figure out any of the problems, and all of us were doing quantitative research at the time. The definitions they use these days don't match the mathematical definitions you use in mathematics, and I can't imagine these children learning the real definition of the words in later mathematics courses without a lot of difficulty changing their way of thinking about a word that was drilled into them as a child. This is probably why we have a shortage of mathematicians. If something is taught in a way that is confusing and unintuitive to children with mathematical talent and reasoning skills, they'll learn that they hate math and aren't good at it.

Yes, I could solve probably any of the problems on the homework. But I would get a 0 for not solving them the way the books says a student should solve them. And I have seen children of math folks getting 0's for solving it the way their parents' suggest it should be solved because it does not match the current math teaching philosophy and the steps the books says one should use. I have gotten 0's on homework for this, as well, when I was growing up. Linear algebra makes a lot more sense for solving systems of equations than the weird pseudo-math taught in pre-algebra.

In mathematics as field, someone who comes up with a new way to solve an old problem that cuts out unnecessary steps is given awards for achievement. A student who does this in middle school is given a bad grade and told they are bad at math...

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Greetings

The answer to the question has been provided in quite a different method, just as humor as is purely hypothetical.

Let us assume that there are N mathematics students who are to appear for the IMO. For each question to be answered by a candidate, there are five possibilities:-

i)He can completely solve the problem to get the answer

ii)He can partly solve the question, but can guess the right answer

iii)He can partly solve the question, but cannot guess the right answer

iv)He cannot solve the problem, but can get the answer through rational judgment of the options

v)He can neither solve the

Greetings

The answer to the question has been provided in quite a different method, just as humor as is purely hypothetical.

Let us assume that there are N mathematics students who are to appear for the IMO. For each question to be answered by a candidate, there are five possibilities:-

i)He can completely solve the problem to get the answer

ii)He can partly solve the question, but can guess the right answer

iii)He can partly solve the question, but cannot guess the right answer

iv)He cannot solve the problem, but can get the answer through rational judgment of the options

v)He can neither solve the problem nor guess the right answer

In the question it has been said that the student can't solve the problem, which means he cannot get the answer at all. Keeping this point of view, condition (iii) and (v) could probably be taken for the failure of the random experiment of solving an IMO problem.

Let each of the above conditions be assigned equal probability, ie, 1/5. Then, success the experiment includes conditions (i),(ii) and (iv).

Hence P(success) = 3/5

Subsequently, P(failure) = 2/5

Let us first calculate the probability for N successes(as there are N students).

By Bernoulli trials, we have, P(N successes) = (3/5)^N*(2/5)^0

So, probability of N successes is (3/5)^N

Then, P(N failures) = 1-(3/5)^N

Hence, in an IMO exam with N mathematics candidates, the probability that a student cannot solve an IMO problem is 1-(3/5)^N.

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Congratulations for your mathematical abilities :)

The answer here is interesting.

First let me tell you that I didn’t make it into math olympiads in highschool (mandatory participation) simply because I wasn’t doing a thing. Yet I finished first at my university for five years, and went on to Cambridge. So everything is a question of work.

I doubt that you spend 6–10 hours in front of your sheet. You probably take breaks, do something in between.

Have you noticed how the answer often comes when you least expect it, that is, when you are not thinking actively about the problem ?

What you need is to

Congratulations for your mathematical abilities :)

The answer here is interesting.

First let me tell you that I didn’t make it into math olympiads in highschool (mandatory participation) simply because I wasn’t doing a thing. Yet I finished first at my university for five years, and went on to Cambridge. So everything is a question of work.

I doubt that you spend 6–10 hours in front of your sheet. You probably take breaks, do something in between.

Have you noticed how the answer often comes when you least expect it, that is, when you are not thinking actively about the problem ?

What you need is to let your brain do ‘subconscious’ (for lack of a better word) work in the background.

If you have four problems to do in 8 hours, spend one hour on each problem (or more if you see the solution). Then go back to the first problem, and so on. This way, you leave your brain three hours to think of alternatives while you are busy doing something else.

I can’t tell you exactly why, but we tend to stay stuck by our own, unconscious, implicit hypotheses.

You probably know all too well this problem :

The answer is not that hard, when you go out of the implicit frame of staying inside the square. Most people don’t realize those assumptions (staying inside the square) they do all the time.

When you actively don’t think about the problem, somehow, those assumptions can be removed.

The other important element would be to train yourself as much as possible, and to try to abstract the thought processes that lead to the answer. There are, in general, families of problems that will be solved in similar fashions. If you encounter many original solutions, and really think hard about how you could have thought about it (ex. which questions you should ask yourself to think of the next step), then you can start to make links when encountering new problems, with your previous knowledge.

I highly recommend russian textbooks (olympiads, arnold,…).

PS : you might be interested in my book ;)

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Either IMO or a graduate course it is still Maths; likewise, for other sciences (Physics and chemistry olympiads or even life sciences). People who are serious in pursuing maths or other sciences should see all facets of the subject and not miss out on any skill. Goal of every student should be to solve IMO papers by 17 years, if not atleast by graduation.

To understand numbers better, students should attempt to solve Vedic mathematics and geometry.

The Geometry of Multiplication of Fractions - The Vedic Maths Forum India

Vedic Geometry - Viewpoints which Matter

Learning is a lifelong activity.

Pra

Either IMO or a graduate course it is still Maths; likewise, for other sciences (Physics and chemistry olympiads or even life sciences). People who are serious in pursuing maths or other sciences should see all facets of the subject and not miss out on any skill. Goal of every student should be to solve IMO papers by 17 years, if not atleast by graduation.

To understand numbers better, students should attempt to solve Vedic mathematics and geometry.

The Geometry of Multiplication of Fractions - The Vedic Maths Forum India

Vedic Geometry - Viewpoints which Matter

Learning is a lifelong activity.

Practice everyday makes a human perfect. Sleep helps consolidate memories.

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Yes, of course.

When my son took Differential Equations, I had to look back at how to create an integrating factor, but otherwise could do any undergraduate math problem. I even helped a college student riding along with us with her Calc II homework while I was driving.

The biggest issue is making sure that you show methods that their HS teacher is familiar with. Not all HS math teachers even have a Bachelor’s degree in math, some just have a minor. I had teachers in Elem and HS who did not like it when I knew things that they had not taught me, either in math or in science. I did not have that

Yes, of course.

When my son took Differential Equations, I had to look back at how to create an integrating factor, but otherwise could do any undergraduate math problem. I even helped a college student riding along with us with her Calc II homework while I was driving.

The biggest issue is making sure that you show methods that their HS teacher is familiar with. Not all HS math teachers even have a Bachelor’s degree in math, some just have a minor. I had teachers in Elem and HS who did not like it when I knew things that they had not taught me, either in math or in science. I did not have that problem with college instructors, as they encouraged independent learning.

My kids had good math teachers, but I would make sure that they understood the techniques that they were studying. I would also show them an alternate method if that other method was more broadly applicable.

For example, the FOIL method is an acronym for how to multiply two first degree polynomials together, in HS typically for two polynomials in a single variable. I would show them an easy and faster way to handle multiplying two polynomials in single variable together of any degree. This also was a way to show them how to handle multiplication in any base.

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No, absolutely not.

IBO and IChO materials are covered in undergraduate Biology/Chemistry courses, but their problems are significantly harder than the homework/exam problems in the corresponding college courses. If an undergraduate student can solve these problems, he/she should be considered excellent, rather than average.

IMO and IOI materials may not be covered in university-level Math/CS courses. You can get a degree in these disciplines without touching anything involved in the corresponding Olympiads. Hence, being an undergraduate student would give one little or no advantage over a high

No, absolutely not.

IBO and IChO materials are covered in undergraduate Biology/Chemistry courses, but their problems are significantly harder than the homework/exam problems in the corresponding college courses. If an undergraduate student can solve these problems, he/she should be considered excellent, rather than average.

IMO and IOI materials may not be covered in university-level Math/CS courses. You can get a degree in these disciplines without touching anything involved in the corresponding Olympiads. Hence, being an undergraduate student would give one little or no advantage over a high school student at all.

IPhO is kind of in between. Still an average undergraduate would have no chance.

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Go for it! This absolutely would not be waste of time. You never lose when you learn.

Most IMO problems does not require much background. The problems are usually easy to understand and start thinking of possible solutions. IMO problems are divided into 4 major fields: Algebra, Combinatorics, Geometry and Number Theory.

As a student you probably found the area you’re passionate about. If this is your case then take a look at the IMO Shortlist problems of your chosen subject. If you are still undecided and want to explore the beauty of all 4 fields, then start with problems 1 and 4 of IMO contest

Go for it! This absolutely would not be waste of time. You never lose when you learn.

Most IMO problems does not require much background. The problems are usually easy to understand and start thinking of possible solutions. IMO problems are divided into 4 major fields: Algebra, Combinatorics, Geometry and Number Theory.

As a student you probably found the area you’re passionate about. If this is your case then take a look at the IMO Shortlist problems of your chosen subject. If you are still undecided and want to explore the beauty of all 4 fields, then start with problems 1 and 4 of IMO contests. First problems of each day are not too complicated but it still might take a while to see the idea of the solution.

My main suggest would be not to give up (and look at the solution), if you could not solve a problem in 15 minutes. Try to do your best; come back after a while, if not succeeded. Solutions are available, but use them wisely. Look at solutions only if you feel that you are really done, then it should be really easy to understand the solution.

P.S. Some people solve these problems within 30 minutes, others need to spend many joyful hours for each problem. This is a measure of speed, not measure of problem solving ability.

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I was a former IMO medalist and did my undergrad at Waterloo in Canada--sometimes described as "MIT North" :) . Whether I found it difficult might depend on one's perspective. Waterloo grades on a scale of 0-100. With hard work, I could definitely get a grade of 100 or very close to 100 in any math course at Waterloo. So that might make it look like I found it easy. However it definitely required

I was a former IMO medalist and did my undergrad at Waterloo in Canada--sometimes described as "MIT North" :) . Whether I found it difficult might depend on one's perspective. Waterloo grades on a scale of 0-100. With hard work, I could definitely get a grade of 100 or very close to 100 in any math course at Waterloo. So that might make it look like I found it easy. However it definitely required hard work to get those grades. I couldn't goof off and still get a grade close to 100 like 97 or 98. If I goofed off--for example not keeping up with the course and then trying to catch up by cramming for the final--my grade wou...

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I have a controversial answer to this:

It is because humans are only barely smarter than other apes.

"What?!" you say. "We went to the moon! We invented epistemic logic! We are unraveling the very laws of the universe!"

True, but you don't need to be particularly smart for that. I believe we achieve all these things mainly by our other qualities:

  • Excellent communication skills. We have evolved to talk. Humans learned to read and write (which took us long enough by the way). Once someone comes up with an idea and writes it down, we can put it in a book and start teaching it in schools. We memorize

I have a controversial answer to this:

It is because humans are only barely smarter than other apes.

"What?!" you say. "We went to the moon! We invented epistemic logic! We are unraveling the very laws of the universe!"

True, but you don't need to be particularly smart for that. I believe we achieve all these things mainly by our other qualities:

  • Excellent communication skills. We have evolved to talk. Humans learned to read and write (which took us long enough by the way). Once someone comes up with an idea and writes it down, we can put it in a book and start teaching it in schools. We memorize the good ideas of the past. Experts at any topic can tell us how to think and what to practice; we practice it for a while and we start to understand the things they learned to understand. No (or not much) creative thought is required anymore, and the leaps of insight we do have occur slowly.
  • Excellent memory. We remember an incredible amount of information, and we slowly but surely process that information, and every now and then we make one or two new connections. We are not good at seeing through something complicated, but after working on a topic for a while we build up a network of connected ideas that lays the foundation for finally understanding the problem.

So in my view, humanity's achievements are fundamentally the product of a very very slow, but very long-running, accumulation of cultural accomplishment.

Of course, some humans are smart relative to other humans. Most humans are smart relative to apes. But from a distance, I think we probably look like a cat that thinks it's big because it has never seen a tiger.

You may not agree with me now. But watch for it. The signs of human stupidity are everywhere. The next time you fail to see a completely obvious connection, don't see the solution to a puzzle that is, in hindsight, embarrassingly simple, then think: what do you really expect of a species of arrogant apes?

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I think the problem was "intermediate level" that people with enough training and not so stupid, can solve it with enough of time..

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In my day and school, we didn’t have the Math Olympiad per se, but Canadian schools had the Junior and Senior Math Contests, the Junior one being produced by the Faculty of Mathematics of the University of Waterloo, while my memory fails me for the Senior one, other than it had to be marked by hand while Waterloo’s was marked by a computer. I was invited to take part in the Junior one in my first year of high school by the teacher who managed it locally - he specifically called me out of class to tell me about it.

In those days, the Junior one was for students in Grades 9 through 11, but nearly

In my day and school, we didn’t have the Math Olympiad per se, but Canadian schools had the Junior and Senior Math Contests, the Junior one being produced by the Faculty of Mathematics of the University of Waterloo, while my memory fails me for the Senior one, other than it had to be marked by hand while Waterloo’s was marked by a computer. I was invited to take part in the Junior one in my first year of high school by the teacher who managed it locally - he specifically called me out of class to tell me about it.

In those days, the Junior one was for students in Grades 9 through 11, but nearly all that wrote it were Grade 11. The Senior one was actually open to anyone, but they generally had students in Grades 12 and 13 (we still had that in those days) trying it. The questions were never just math from the comparable classroom, but problems needing the student to figure out the mathematical considerations needed to get an answer. Some were more challenging than others, but rarely did they dive into anything needing esoteric theoretical mathematics. If anything, they often ended up being solved with math that should have been mastered by Grade 7, once you understood what the problem represented mathematically.

Some people live with working out complex multi variable equations on a chalkboard or wipe board representing matrices and eigen vectors with nearly no standalone defined values as part of Ph.D. or D.Math theses. Some develop mathematical models of theories or propositions coming from other disciplines, such as physics or economics, or extrapolate on existing ones to find theoretical real world impacts (or divergences). These are single questions where the properties and mathematical principles are worked with at length. Math Olympiads are being able to craft mathematical models on the fly, and understanding the applicable properties of the numbers involved, in a short amount of time. These are not going to be complex models necessarily, but they are drawing on enough knowledge to perceive possible values that find a solution, and possible pratfalls that can result in wrong answers.


The Junior Math Contest, I remember the first year there being people close to tears not knowing the answers, and it was multiple choice. Me, I have always had a knack for multiple choice tests as the answer is actually there. I have a memory of answering something like ten of fifteen questions in the test time in Grade 9, and out of around 30 that wrote the Junior one in the school that year, I placed first. The one that placed second was in Grade 10, and the one that placed third was in Grade 11. I wrote the Junior test for the next two years that I was eligible and the second time I was top in the region of the province, while I think I remember being in the top 100 in the province in Grade 11. That year, I also wrote the Senior one, and the Grade 13 students saw me and reacted that there went their chance of winning it. Because it was written out answers, it was more difficult, and I told them that I was only trying it to get an idea of what to expect - I didn’t think I would do as well.

I won each of those the three years I wrote them, at least in terms of the school. They weren’t sent away to be marked but rather the teacher handling the Senior Mathematics Contest had the marking guide and scored them with the results the next day, but that meant that I never heard how I ranked beyond the school. Mathematics and Computer Science came easily to me in high school, and it was understood that I was going to the University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics. I took a couple Pure Mathematics courses in my first year there, the sort that those going on to Ph.D or D.Math would focus on, and I nearly flunked both of them.

It is a different mindset - Math Olympiad aces likely might do better in areas of physics, engineering, economics or computer science, where the modelling is needed more directly. Just like I didn’t switch to that complex level of mathematics as easily as I had thought I could in light of my high school experience, those taking a path to Masters or Doctoral degrees in mathematics didn’t necessarily switch to the mathematical deciphering of situations that the math contests explored.

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There are math Olympiad problems that people with PhD in math and prior math Olympiad experience struggle with.

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“Can”…? John von Neumann passed away over 60 years ago, two years before the very first International Math Olympiad was held.

The problems of that first IMO, back in 1959, would be solved quickly not just by von Neumann but by virtually all present-day IMO contestants. “No time” is a bit of a stretch: the geometry problems (4, 5 and 6) require at least a bit of mental diagramming and angle chasing. But they are not a serious challenge to trained students today, and they would not have been any sort of challenge to von Neumann. He was a frightfully powerful and fast problem solver. He’d be bored

“Can”…? John von Neumann passed away over 60 years ago, two years before the very first International Math Olympiad was held.

The problems of that first IMO, back in 1959, would be solved quickly not just by von Neumann but by virtually all present-day IMO contestants. “No time” is a bit of a stretch: the geometry problems (4, 5 and 6) require at least a bit of mental diagramming and angle chasing. But they are not a serious challenge to trained students today, and they would not have been any sort of challenge to von Neumann. He was a frightfully powerful and fast problem solver. He’d be bored.

Present-day IMO is a different matter. We can’t say for sure, of course, and it’s easy to ascribe god-like powers to von Neumann, but I don’t think he would see right through P3’s and P6’s of recent IMOs “in no time”. Even P2’s and P5’s may get him to think for a few minutes. Some very tricky problems – I can idly speculate which – he’d shatter in seconds, seeing through their core immediately. But it’s unreasonable to assume that he’d do that with all modern problems.

Math Olympiad problems developed a style and numerous techniques and methodologies over the years. von Neumann could do without today’s training camps, but 60 years of cumulative evolution are not nothing, even for his extraordinary mind.

If he were alive today and somehow cared about math Olympiad problems, he could quickly become a world class Olympiad problem solver after a few weeks of catching up. Many IMO problems are a walk in the park for several other professional mathematicians (not all of them!), and he’d probably be much faster than all or most of them.

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Common? Very few school kids even try to solve any IMO problem, so no, it’s not common.

If you’re looking for affirmation that you did something special, I’m afraid I can’t say. Of the people who look at IMO problems without studying Olympiad-style problem solving, a lot more walk away thinking they’ve solved something than actually solving something.

If you’ve correctly solved IMO 2024 P1 and P5 and IMO 2017 P1 and P5 (I don’t know what you mean by “etc”), that’s great. If problem solving interests you, spend time studying the methodologies and solve as many problems as you can; that’ll be more

Common? Very few school kids even try to solve any IMO problem, so no, it’s not common.

If you’re looking for affirmation that you did something special, I’m afraid I can’t say. Of the people who look at IMO problems without studying Olympiad-style problem solving, a lot more walk away thinking they’ve solved something than actually solving something.

If you’ve correctly solved IMO 2024 P1 and P5 and IMO 2017 P1 and P5 (I don’t know what you mean by “etc”), that’s great. If problem solving interests you, spend time studying the methodologies and solve as many problems as you can; that’ll be more fruitful than checking if what you did is common or uncommon.


(…)

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‘Any’ is a really general quantifier. I’d say you’d be able to solve almost all high school math problems.

But really, you don’t need to be a PhD in mathematics to do this. Any competent high school student would be able to do this, too.

The level of high school mathematics is rather low.

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The answer is that most of the domestic USA IMO people that I know have not found MIT math classes to be e.g. extremely difficult to get an A in, and with some amount of work most IMO medalists do pretty well. If you have the mathematical maturity, the problem solving ability, and the relevant background for a class, you should learn the material and get a high grade.

That being said, certain classes like 18.785 are a lot of work for everyone (and you learn a lot!). Also I have heard of more cases of international IMO people struggling with MIT math classes, as in other countries perhaps it is

The answer is that most of the domestic USA IMO people that I know have not found MIT math classes to be e.g. extremely difficult to get an A in, and with some amount of work most IMO medalists do pretty well. If you have the mathematical maturity, the problem solving ability, and the relevant background for a class, you should learn the material and get a high grade.

That being said, certain classes like 18.785 are a lot of work for everyone (and you learn a lot!). Also I have heard of more cases of international IMO people struggling with MIT math classes, as in other countries perhaps it is more likely that someone could do well on the IMO but not really have a strong math background in the traditional sense.

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Someone spoke here as a non-IMO medalist. So here’s mine as a Bronze medalist of IMO.

The answer depends on the exact college you are talking about. For an average college, you shouldn’t make the comparison at all: An average math major at the end of college (or even during his/her second degree) is far behind an IMO medalist even at the beginning of college.

There’s one litmus test for this: the ability to write proofs. Every IMO medalist knows how to write proofs, even if their proofs are not very rigorous. At the other hand, most majors in an average college do not have the ability to do proo

Someone spoke here as a non-IMO medalist. So here’s mine as a Bronze medalist of IMO.

The answer depends on the exact college you are talking about. For an average college, you shouldn’t make the comparison at all: An average math major at the end of college (or even during his/her second degree) is far behind an IMO medalist even at the beginning of college.

There’s one litmus test for this: the ability to write proofs. Every IMO medalist knows how to write proofs, even if their proofs are not very rigorous. At the other hand, most majors in an average college do not have the ability to do proofs. Many of them (as far as I see) even fail to write down a double integral as a solution of a problem.

Without the ability to write proof you’re not even at the door of Mathematics.

Of course, if you’re talking about the best universities, that’s another story. The math in research is very different from the math in competitions anyway.

Anyway, for the OP: If you’re really interested in Mathematics, then don’t be scared. Spend some time (i.e. months) to learn how to do proofs, and once you get used to proofs you’re on par with IMO medalists. You need to go through some painful transition on how to do Mathematics though.

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I have a PhD in mathematics, and I teach mathematics to high-school students. I sometimes give them problems I don’t know how to solve, and even that no one knows how to solve, because it would be so amazing if one of them solved an open problem in one of my classes!

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I think the skill required for math competitions is a subset of the skill required for successful math research.

Math competitions is about problem solving under time pressure. Moreover, the problems are special. You know an IMO problem has a solution that is usually based on one clever idea and fits within a few pages.

In math research, the first step is establishing a research program. This involves a long term vision that seems to be unrelated to math competitions. There will be larger and smaller projects. You face problems for which you do not know the existence of any type of solution befo

I think the skill required for math competitions is a subset of the skill required for successful math research.

Math competitions is about problem solving under time pressure. Moreover, the problems are special. You know an IMO problem has a solution that is usually based on one clever idea and fits within a few pages.

In math research, the first step is establishing a research program. This involves a long term vision that seems to be unrelated to math competitions. There will be larger and smaller projects. You face problems for which you do not know the existence of any type of solution beforehand. It is important to see the big picture, beyond a small clever idea that fits in a couple of pages. It is also important to have perseverance through a prolonged period of time.

In the context of a larger project, you usually encounter smaller sub-problems in the style of IMO problems. This is usually in the form of proving lemmas. Math competitions skill comes handy there, because you need to solve them in order to move forward. Pretty much every important mathematical result involves at least one step that is tricky to figure out.

In math research, it is also important to collaborate effectively with your colleagues.

As you can see, there is more involved in math research compared to math competitions. There are also several very successful mathematicians out there who are not as good at problem solving as you would think, but collaborate effectively with other mathematicians and contribute other parts of the puzzle.

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IMO math isn’t that much higher than the level of math you learn in high school; the only major difference lies in how you are expected to apply the knowledge you have.

At the IMO, there are four fields of mathematics that are covered. These are, as follows: Combinatorics, Number Theory, Geometry and Algebra. Of these, the only formulae or theorems you might need that are not taught at high school are some of the more complex theorems in geometry - although you should be able to solve most IMO geometry problems with basic methods, the true difficulty lies in how you choose to use the method - a

IMO math isn’t that much higher than the level of math you learn in high school; the only major difference lies in how you are expected to apply the knowledge you have.

At the IMO, there are four fields of mathematics that are covered. These are, as follows: Combinatorics, Number Theory, Geometry and Algebra. Of these, the only formulae or theorems you might need that are not taught at high school are some of the more complex theorems in geometry - although you should be able to solve most IMO geometry problems with basic methods, the true difficulty lies in how you choose to use the method - and some of the concepts used in algebra and number theory, such as modular arithmetic.

Most high-schoolers would have no problem understanding the solutions to IMO problems. Solving the problem yourself, however, is a whole other ball game. Typical high school or university math exams generally ask questions where the theorems or formulae you need to use are quite clear, and the challenge comes from remembering the right formula and not making a calculation error. With IMO problems, you are thrown headfirst into the pool - you have no clue which theorem to use, which idea to apply, and you simply have to figure out a path to your solution. There are many such paths, some more elegant than others, and it is for that reason I liken Olympiad problems to exploratory journeys - you never know if you’re going in the right direction until you reach your destination. Normal math, on the other hand, is a race down a straight road, with the major constraint being time. There’s no lack of time at an IMO - you have 4.5 hours for 3 problems!

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Anyone who enjoys math and cares about improving their mathematical abilities will push themselves to their limits. In that sense, everyone doing mathematics finds it hard.

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I don’t think so.

I don’t think so.

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Most people solve Rubik's cube by looking up other people's solutions, then they spend time practicing to do it as quickly as possible. A few just pick up the cube and work out what they have to do to solve it, then they put it down and look for a new challenge. Solving olympiad problems are the same.

The olympiad problems posed at a lower level tend to use well known tricks. It is very hard to think of truely original problems requiring new methods involving only high school maths. If you spend enough time going over past problems looking at other peoples solutions to learn the tricks you will

Most people solve Rubik's cube by looking up other people's solutions, then they spend time practicing to do it as quickly as possible. A few just pick up the cube and work out what they have to do to solve it, then they put it down and look for a new challenge. Solving olympiad problems are the same.

The olympiad problems posed at a lower level tend to use well known tricks. It is very hard to think of truely original problems requiring new methods involving only high school maths. If you spend enough time going over past problems looking at other peoples solutions to learn the tricks you will be able to do those problems.

At the level of the IMO it is different. They select the problems from many international submissions made by top mathematicians and they are looking for problems that can only be solved with clever new ideas that are different from those used before. If you want to be able to solve them then you can practice by doing past IMO problems but you must never look at other peoples solutions until you have found one of your own. If you cant solve one problem now then leave it and come back to it again later. The techniques for finding new ways to solve problems can also be learnt, but not by looking at other people's solutions because the route they took to find the solution is not written down.

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There is some overlap, but in my opinion the skills are different. Obviously there are some people like Terry Tao who have done brilliantly at both.

Solving IMO problems is like solving undergraduate mathematics problems, only harder. Some other mathematician has already devised and solved the problem, and verified that it can be solved in half an hour or so, no matter how much ingenuity you may need to do so.

Solving real research problems is different- once you are a mature researcher you have to devise your own problems to solve. You must triage possible research problems, disregarding proble

There is some overlap, but in my opinion the skills are different. Obviously there are some people like Terry Tao who have done brilliantly at both.

Solving IMO problems is like solving undergraduate mathematics problems, only harder. Some other mathematician has already devised and solved the problem, and verified that it can be solved in half an hour or so, no matter how much ingenuity you may need to do so.

Solving real research problems is different- once you are a mature researcher you have to devise your own problems to solve. You must triage possible research problems, disregarding problems that are too easy or too difficult for you. You might never manage to find a solution to some innocuous sounding problem.

In my long career as an applied mathematician and as a learner and teacher of mathematics I have known plenty of brilliant undergraduate students who did well in examinations and mathematics competitions and who went on to be research students at prestigious universities around the world, but turned out not to have the ability to be self directed pure mathematics researchers. On the other hand, I have known plenty of competent but not apparently brilliant students who later did brilliantly at research.

What are my qualifications for having an opinion on this? I have had a successful career in research as an applied mathematician. As a teenager I came third in Queensland in the senior section of a mathematics competition for high school students.

The young man who won the mathematics competition in my year went on to top the matriculation examination in Queensland, and get an undergraduate scholarship to the Australian National University, where he got straight High Distinctions and a first class honours degree. At that stage on paper he had probably the best academic record of any ANU graduate ever.

He got a scholarship to Oxbridge, where he enrolled in but didn’t finish his PhD. He later returned to Australia and finished a less theoretical PhD in economics, and worked for the World Bank based in the USA. He got a high up job in the Australian civil service. In his forties he finally got a three year research job in a university, and after a few months said to me, “This research business is a lot more difficult than I thought it would be”. He was and is a very smart guy, but just didn’t have the ability to imagine and then solve suitable original research problems.

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"I'm not the only socially awkward person in the world."

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I went to the IMO quite a long time ago, in 1996. Let me try to describe what I recall from my experience, 18 years later.

  • The math: even though I did pretty bad (I got a grand total of 6 points!), I still learned a lot, and I could fully understand the solutions to the problems after the test. I am proud to say that I got the same score in problem 5 as all the Chinese team combined: 0 point. Joking aside, I still got to learn a lot from the test and from other contestants (I vividly remember a guy from Armenia teaching me how to solve that problem 5!).
  • The place: IMO 1996 was in Mumbai, India,

I went to the IMO quite a long time ago, in 1996. Let me try to describe what I recall from my experience, 18 years later.

  • The math: even though I did pretty bad (I got a grand total of 6 points!), I still learned a lot, and I could fully understand the solutions to the problems after the test. I am proud to say that I got the same score in problem 5 as all the Chinese team combined: 0 point. Joking aside, I still got to learn a lot from the test and from other contestants (I vividly remember a guy from Armenia teaching me how to solve that problem 5!).
  • The place: IMO 1996 was in Mumbai, India, and I am Brazilian (even though my middle and last names announces my Asian heritage, I was born and raised in Brazil). So it was an incredible experience, especially in terms of culture shock. I learned to respect other cultures; I learned that there are nice people everywhere; I learned to respect my own country.
  • The people: I think that's the main reason IMO is so cool. You have the opportunity to meet people from all over the world. I remember making friends from Albania, Switzerland, Argentina, Colombia, Portugal, Morocco, Armenia (we played soccer with them, the grass was so tall that we could barely see the ball) and so on. Everyone is bound by a common interest, so socializing is easier right off the bat. And of course, there are my teammates, which I consider friends for life. I still get in touch with 3 out of 4 of them (maybe I'll meet the 4th one again, we even shared a room and became best friends!).
  • Excursions: we went to Pune climb a mountain (we were supposed to see a temple, but we lost our way and saw... a TV tower.) and to an amusement park. We were free to walk around town with our guide in our free time too; I remember getting into a cab, going to the mall and seeing a snake charmer.

Interestingly, the least I remember from my IMO was the tests. I mean, I do remember the problems, but I can't remember how I reacted to them. Again, I was never very competitive to begin with.
I still go to IMOs as a team leader or coordinator, and I still think it's fun. But mainly because of people.
It's a great party with lots of fun stories.
In retrospect, maybe I'm not the best person to describe this; I'm not competitive enough.

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